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Ask HN: Why can't I downvote? I've been a member for over 10 years
Does HN not have downvotes? I feel like I've seen people talk about being downvoted before...
- elkos 5y agoYou need to have enough karma to do so. I'm not able to downvote as well. By engaging and adding value to the discussions posted you will hopefully be able to have this and other features unlocked.
- 37 5y agoOh okay wow. And you've been here longer than me. I understand the push for engagement and the idea of preventing mass bot accounts, but I'd think after a few years they would give the ability. Wonder if they have considered this...
- Chyzwar 5y agoIf someone cannot contribute to discussion in a meaningful way, why they should have the right to downvote?
- null_shift 5y agoInteresting question. I think there are those of us that enjoy following along with a discussion as opposed to directly participating in it. A “lurker” if you will. For myself, I like to do this to see opposing viewpoints on a topic, to help crystalize my own thoughts. Also, I often read on mobile and don’t have the patience to write lengthy replies on my iPhone keyboard. I’m not necessarily saying that users like myself deserve the right to dowvote, but I do consider myself part of this community, even if I am not actively “participating” by writing comments.
- 37 5y agoThanks for putting it in those words. I am very much a lurker. If I did have the ability to downvote, I would do it maybe two or three times a year, like I do on reddit. >Also, I often read on mobile and don’t have the patience to write lengthy replies on my iPhone keyboard. This also rings true. Or sometimes when I don't have the time or energy to sit down and write out a reasoned response.
- tharkun__ 5y agoDisclaimer: I have been here way less than 10 years. At least w/ an account, lurking before that without an account even. Lengthy replies are not needed at all. Look at this recent article https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29756714 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29756714 and find my reply. Very short but it adds information to the discussion in that Microsoft is not alone in this and other large vendors have such problems too. I did a CTRL-F to see if anyone else had mentioned SAP already and since they didn't, I did a quick Google search to find corroborating evidence of what I knew from work like 10 years ago about SAP production systems shutting down due to DST changes. People upvoted this. Maybe, just maybe (!) - going out on a limb here that might get me downvoted, I didn't go through your comment history - there's a hint in your and your parent's reply: no patience for a reasoned response. I think if you really try for reasoned responses, even force yourself to type out that reasoned response, especially on the phone, as it slows you down, it can give you the time you need to make it a reasoned response. It's very easy and fast to write an inflammatory response. Side note: I don't know if you have ever been downvoted yourself but that obviously doesn't help w/ the karma you got ;) If that is the case, there are other things we can discuss about how to change that but for now I won't just assume that this is the case and shut up.
- gtirloni 5y agoJust contribute some links and you'll get karma as well. No need to engage in discussions.
- elkos 5y agoBeen here doesn't mean I was active in any meaningful way or made any significant contributions to the community. I do encourage you to be active, there are several users out there with great insights and the level of discourse is pretty high even if people have a different point of view or opinion in a subject matter.
- Retric 5y agoFor lack of a better term it’s proof of work. Simply making accounts and waiting is easy, you don’t want the temptation to create a lot of accounts then heavily downvote people you disagree with. Voting rings seem like an easy way around this but tend to be easy to catch.
- 37 5y agoI mean... I guess I understand, maybe just the threshold feels a little high for introverts like me (and the others who have commented here with accounts lasting many years and <501 karma). Also, for some reason, I sorta had the assumption that HN users wouldn't be that level of malicious (maybe because these rules exist, or maybe because they seem smarter than the average bear, or maybe because I'm crazy and see HN as some getaway paradise oasis that I can escape to and get some rational reasonable informative content).
- bravenous 5y ago
- 37 5y agoWell, I can't downvote you, as you know, nor would I if I had the ability, (nor have you had any downvotes yet from what I can tell) but I feel like they are coming. But, hey, internet points, who cares... right? There is a groupthink in tech, and media, and commerce in general, and yes probably even here on HN. The extent of which, I cannot speak to, so I will leave it to someone more knowledgeable. And can't say I know much about the Stasi, but this sentence: >I had my comments removed for benign stuff like blockchain driven shared database will usher participatory democracy, a pattern of Hinduphobic posts on HN and a class systems existing in US and UK with Ivy leaguers and Eton graduates. I have read a few times and still don't understand. I'm assuming this is the reasoning they gave when they removed your comment(s)? I feel like I understand all the words, just not sure if it's you saying you were being Hinduphobic, or if it was them saying you were being Hinduphobic. At the same time I feel, of course there is a class system in the US and UK, that's basically undeniable. How much of it revolves around schooling is, once again, a question for someone other than me.
- inetknght 5y ago> I'd think after a few years they would give the ability. That would just encourage bots to sit for years and let their timers expire before letting themselves known.
- 37 5y agoAre people really that petty? Or is it like a mass-agenda, control-the-narrative type of thing? For some reason I didn't(don't?) think this would happen, especially on HN. Maybe I'm being obtuse or naive.
- booleandilemma 5y agoI’ve observed that the world operates on the principle of: “if someone can, someone will”. So if HN worked the way you describe, someone would create “sleeper bots” that would emerge only after x years.
- shawnz 5y agoWhy should age of account be factored in at all? What does it prove?
- lillecarl 5y agoThat you have had an account for a long time, other than that I'd say essentially nothing.
- drewcoo 5y agoJust like anything else, should seniority be measured in time served, accomplishments, potential, passion, social skills, or other?
- tptacek 5y agoYou're not missing much! Being able to downvote people isn't going to make your HN experience much better.
- karaterobot 5y agoMy guess is that the justification for requiring a certain amount of karma to downvote is that if you have that, you've given evidence that you understand the tone and rules of the community enough to be trusted to help moderate it. This assumes that people upvote comments not because they agree with them, but because they contribute to the kinds of discussions HN wants to have. In practice, of course, that's not what gets upvotes a lot of the time, so I'm not sure that particular "game mechanic" is working as intended. To be fair, there is no practical way I know of to accomplish that intended goal, and this is as good a solution as any.
- jjgreen 5y agoYou need karma > 500 (IIRC) for downvotes.
- 37 5y agoOh okay. At the rate I'm going I will be able to downvote after about 57 years. Hmm...
- LinuxBender 5y agoFor what its worth, karma is gained not only by discussion but also by article submission. If you found 1 article per day that evokes curious and thought provoking discussion then you would be well above the threshold in no time.
- tasogare 5y agoHint: anything with Rust in the title is upvoted regardless of the (lack of) content, if it stay positive towards the language.
- cinntaile 5y agoIt can be part of your new year's resolutions. Downvote at least one person you disagree with before the year's over.
- 5y ago
- harha 5y agoYou can find the details here: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvoting-comments https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvo...
- tr33house 5y agoSummarizing here: Looks like you need >=501 Karma points to be able to downvote
- new_user_final 5y agoI really hate the topbar on my new account and I can't change it.
- mihaitodor 5y agoIs it really such a useful feature, though? I have mixed feelings about the way this is used on StackOverflow, for example. I post there extremely rarely and it always bugs me to get a quick downvote without any explanation or anything. I'd very much rather see my post get no or very few upvotes and maybe some constructive comments on how to improve it than to have people use the lazy one-click solution to downvote it into oblivion.
- nousermane 5y agoWith no down-voting, you'll inevitably end up with a different metric: engagement/popularity, where controversial opinions are featured as prominently as agreeable ones.
- mihaitodor 5y agoI'm not sure that having the ability to downvote prevents this issue. Do you have any explanation on how it works in practice? I'd be curious to see some study with real data.
- nousermane 5y agoI'd love to see a study with real data on this topic too, but at the the most basic level, with up/down voting you can figure out several metrics: - quality (or rather, agreeableness): up - down; - engagement: up + down; - controversy: min(up, down). First one is the most common (HN, reddit, ...). Second famously is (was?) one of the core metrics for youtube recommendation algorithm, and also something pretty close to the only metric upvote-only forums end up with (twitter); same goes for forums where "reactions" are intentionally orthogonal/ambivalent/confusing (facebook). Third feels a bit dangerous for direct use, but might be a good signal to flag for a human moderator to review.
- mihaitodor 5y agoInteresting, thanks for that! I'd guess the one which Facebook added is quite skewed, because the default action is thumbs up and the rest are hidden, especially on mobile, where you can't just hover to see them and people are lazy.
- washadjeffmad 5y agoI've got >500 karma. Why can't I downvote certain users or comments, reply to certain comments, and occasionally appear to partially lose the ability to downvote for a period if comments I post receive downvotes?
- irthomasthomas 5y agoYou cannot down vote immediate replies to your comments, perhaps that is what you are experiencing?
- opportune 5y agoAlso you cannot downvote old comments
- washadjeffmad 5y agoThat looks like part of it. Randomly in threads there are also comments that don't have any vote toggles or can only be upvoted. Occasionally the ability to downvote everywhere is also removed. I generally only vote on threads, but it's been a curious thing.
- eyeball 5y agois there a karma limit that turns on ability to down-vote articles rather than comments?
- new_user_final 5y agoIFAIK their is no down-vote option for submission.
- tgv 5y agoIt’s not everything it’s cracked up to be. I hardly ever use it. In principle, downvotes are meant for messages that are irrelevant, off topic, insulting, belligerent (can you believe my phone turned that into beliebers?) etc. The effect stops at -1 or -2 points, I believe, so it’s quite likely that a really upsetting comment has already been downvoted maximally. And you can’t downvote replies to your own comments, nor submissions. Not worth losing any sleep over.
- karmakurtisaani 5y ago> can you believe my phone turned that into beliebers? To be fair, that would have fit your list just as well.
- deltaonefour 5y ago>In principle, downvotes are meant for messages that are irrelevant, off topic, insulting, belligerent (can you believe my phone turned that into beliebers?) etc. In principle this is what it's used for, however it's mostly used to vote down comments people disagree or agree with. For example if I say something like global warming is an incorrect theory on a related topic I'd get voted down simply because most people disagree. Technically that statement did no fit the formal criteria to get voted down but people use it incorrectly.
- detaro 5y agoYou are mistaken about the "formal criteria" for downvotes on HN. "Don't downvote to disagree" is an official rule on reddit, but not on HN (although a good chunk of the community thinks it should be).
- deltaonefour 5y agoI am saying "downvoting to disagree" is not a formal criteria on HN.
- dang 5y ago
- lettergram 5y agoIt’s based on how much karma you have. The more you engage the more features are unlocked. Personally, I think flagging should require 5000+ karma, not sure what it is. I think up and downvotes are >500 karma
- sungam 5y agoI have been a member 14 years and also can't downvote - I assumed it was to do with karma...
- KindOne 5y agoYou need 501 karma for downvoting. https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvoting-comments https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#downvo...
- cheese_van 5y agoPerhaps it is a good thing that you can't downvote. I'm not sure. Is being able to downvote a necessary condition to "engage"? Or does not being able to downvote force us to engage, not with an easy click, but with a considered comment? Perhaps this condition adds to HN's value as a venue where you can expect to encounter thoughtfulness? It's why we come here after all. Or perhaps it trains the new user how to use the site in ways best suited to HN's culture?
- andrewjf 5y agoI think downvoting is a crucial tool in preventing echo chambers. I get the “encouraging engagement” but sometimes it’s not worth engaging trolls and comments should get buried, not responded to. I wonder if facebook eliminating the thumbs down contributed any toxicity in that platform.
- sto_hristo 5y agoYou must write popular, agreeable, and very politically correct posts that everyone will have no other option but to up vote.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- lsferreira42 5y agoI also can't downvote because i'm a little bit too shy and insecure about my written english skills
- hffft 5y agoI have a few accounts with downvote powers if you need one... they expired their few months life, for me.