5 ms·

Why is it possible for him to be deported from Georgia to the USA? He didn't break any Georgian laws, did he?

detaro 5y ago
Illegitimately obtaining military "secrets" is a crime pretty much everywhere. Would it have been illegal for him to obtain such documents about Georgian military tech in such a way in Georgia? Then the US can ask for him to extradited for obtaining US documents - at least that's how many extradition treaties work.
- cm2187 5y ago
  Also it’s not because there aren’t extradition treaties that one cannot be deported. A country can always ask for a one time favour, and the US usually gets most head of state’s attention.
- catchmilk 5y ago
  Assuming OP's story is 100% true - how is buying something off of Ebay illegitimate?
  - scoopertrooper 5y ago
    Buying the manuals wasn’t the crime. He violated the Arms Export Control Act, when he tried to ship them back to Russia via an American stooge.
    - jevoten 5y ago
      The Arms Export Control Act is a US law, and his friend was neither American nor in America. As a non-American myself, I don't like it one bit when I see US law reach into what should be sovereign countries. And then have that dismissed as "there's nothing stopping Georgia from doing a favor for the US", when that favor involves taking away the freedom of one of their citizens. A US citizen getting extradited to Russia as a favor would not be treated so casually.
      - wrboyce 5y ago
        > A US citizen getting extradited to Russia as a favor would not be treated so casually. It just wouldn’t fucking happen because America think themselves above every other nation. Case in point, Anne Sacoolas.
      - scoopertrooper 5y ago
        First to correct some factual errors. The importer was a Russian citizen, who happened to be visiting Georgia. His conspirator was an American citizen living in Texas, that being a critical element to him being able to purchase the manuals and forward them to Russia. Furthermore, it wasn’t that long ago when Russia invaded Georgia and essentially annexed portions of its territory. It’s clearly in their national interest to cooperate with laws that seek to prevent technology transfers to Russia. However, if you defraud a little old lady living in England of her money over the internet, you may very well be extradited to the UK despite being from the US. Would that be the UK riding rough shot over US sovereignty? The American legal system (for all its faults) is independent and has strong safe guards for the rights of defendants. The Russian legal system is not independent and routinely uses as a tool to suppress descent and prevent potential challengers from standing for election as observed in the many cases against Navalny.
        OJFord 5y ago
        > However, if you defraud a little old lady living in England of her money over the internet, you may very well be extradited to the UK despite being from the US. You reckon? It's only crimes that happen on the USA's side of the road that don't count?
        usrusr 5y ago
        So what happened to the Texan guy? Was this the outcome of some legal construction shifting all blame to the absentee, a legal construction that was entirely well-meant because on paper they'd have treat him like some cold war area spy but didn't find that appropriate wrt the documents in question? With nobody expecting that construction to affect the absentee like it eventually did? Imagine some US citizen had bought "can't leave the country" documents about some British military things via a London middle-man (very hypothetical because I'd assume secrecy to work very differently in the UK). Would one expect the UK to skip that middle-man wrt consequences?
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    The story is this, to the extent of my understanding: US citizens are free to sell such manuals within the US. The seller refused to send the manual to Oleg on his russian address, so some american guy on a game forum agreed to buy it and resend it to Russia. And in doing so the US espionage law was broken. Dura lex, etc. Had he just scanned the manual and put it anonymously online, all would be ok, I guess.
- trasz 5y ago
  There weren’t any secrets involved; the manuals are public.
  - detaro 5y ago
    I used "secrets" with the quotes as stand-in for "documents restricted in some way" since I didn't know the details, reading other comments I guess you should insert "export-controlled information" instead, I don't think it changes the point of the comment much. Plenty places have that concept, so plenty places will extradite over it.

Illegitimately obtaining military "secrets" is a crime pretty much everywhere. Would it have been illegal for him to obtain such documents about Georgian military tech in such a way in Georgia? Then the US can ask for him to extradited for obtaining US documents - at least that's how many extradition treaties work.

cm2187 5y ago
Also it’s not because there aren’t extradition treaties that one cannot be deported. A country can always ask for a one time favour, and the US usually gets most head of state’s attention.
catchmilk 5y ago
Assuming OP's story is 100% true - how is buying something off of Ebay illegitimate?
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  Buying the manuals wasn’t the crime. He violated the Arms Export Control Act, when he tried to ship them back to Russia via an American stooge.
  - jevoten 5y ago
    The Arms Export Control Act is a US law, and his friend was neither American nor in America. As a non-American myself, I don't like it one bit when I see US law reach into what should be sovereign countries. And then have that dismissed as "there's nothing stopping Georgia from doing a favor for the US", when that favor involves taking away the freedom of one of their citizens. A US citizen getting extradited to Russia as a favor would not be treated so casually.
    - wrboyce 5y ago
      > A US citizen getting extradited to Russia as a favor would not be treated so casually. It just wouldn’t fucking happen because America think themselves above every other nation. Case in point, Anne Sacoolas.
    - scoopertrooper 5y ago
      First to correct some factual errors. The importer was a Russian citizen, who happened to be visiting Georgia. His conspirator was an American citizen living in Texas, that being a critical element to him being able to purchase the manuals and forward them to Russia. Furthermore, it wasn’t that long ago when Russia invaded Georgia and essentially annexed portions of its territory. It’s clearly in their national interest to cooperate with laws that seek to prevent technology transfers to Russia. However, if you defraud a little old lady living in England of her money over the internet, you may very well be extradited to the UK despite being from the US. Would that be the UK riding rough shot over US sovereignty? The American legal system (for all its faults) is independent and has strong safe guards for the rights of defendants. The Russian legal system is not independent and routinely uses as a tool to suppress descent and prevent potential challengers from standing for election as observed in the many cases against Navalny.
      - OJFord 5y ago
        > However, if you defraud a little old lady living in England of her money over the internet, you may very well be extradited to the UK despite being from the US. You reckon? It's only crimes that happen on the USA's side of the road that don't count?
      - usrusr 5y ago
        So what happened to the Texan guy? Was this the outcome of some legal construction shifting all blame to the absentee, a legal construction that was entirely well-meant because on paper they'd have treat him like some cold war area spy but didn't find that appropriate wrt the documents in question? With nobody expecting that construction to affect the absentee like it eventually did? Imagine some US citizen had bought "can't leave the country" documents about some British military things via a London middle-man (very hypothetical because I'd assume secrecy to work very differently in the UK). Would one expect the UK to skip that middle-man wrt consequences?
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  The story is this, to the extent of my understanding: US citizens are free to sell such manuals within the US. The seller refused to send the manual to Oleg on his russian address, so some american guy on a game forum agreed to buy it and resend it to Russia. And in doing so the US espionage law was broken. Dura lex, etc. Had he just scanned the manual and put it anonymously online, all would be ok, I guess.
trasz 5y ago
There weren’t any secrets involved; the manuals are public.
- detaro 5y ago
  I used "secrets" with the quotes as stand-in for "documents restricted in some way" since I didn't know the details, reading other comments I guess you should insert "export-controlled information" instead, I don't think it changes the point of the comment much. Plenty places have that concept, so plenty places will extradite over it.