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Because we have specific environmental problems right now, that are quite serious and worth focusing on? You do this stuff because you want to accomplish somet

Because we have specific environmental problems right now, that are quite serious and worth focusing on? You do this stuff because you want to accomplish something. If animals go extinct, that is obviously unfortunate, but it pales in comparison to the prospect that we do so. The EU isn't trying to accomplish some type of perfect environmental justice, they're trying to keep the world habitable.

xcambar 5y ago
> If animals go extinct, that is obviously unfortunate, but it pales in comparison to the prospect that we do so. I agree with the global sentiment of your comment, but let's not forget that animal extinction is 1/ well on its way and 2/ a direct precursor of human extinction.
diordiderot 5y ago
That is counter productive to keeping the earth habitable. This "considered middle ground" ideology is more dangerous than denial. Like MLK said about "white moderates".
- ben_w 5y ago
  The perfect is the enemy of the good. The required reduction is 99.9% of greenhouse emissions for the next millennium. No institution has ever had that power, few have lasted that long, and even those few which have lasted that long underwent significant policy changes in that time. If we can’t make saving the planet cheap enough that even the greedy and selfish prefer to do that, then we can’t win at all. But half-arsing it now gives us more tomorrows in which to create the better solution.
  - AstralStorm 5y ago
    Maximally 10 extra years and waste of a lot of labor and money that could be put into building and developing nuclear power plants and more renewables.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      10 more years is needed if you want nuclear. Possibly also batteries, but that’s harder for me to estimate — we’ve got the price down, but we need way more volume.
      - heartbeats 5y ago
        It would take mere months to open back up those plants recently closed. Back in the 70s they could construct plants in 2-5 years. Chernobyl 1 began and completed construction in the same year! Has our technology gotten worse since then? Or is it just permits and bureaucracy impeding us?
        ben_w 5y ago
        This is worldwide, not localised to one specific nation, so likely we created the bureaucracy for good reasons.
- afarrell 5y ago
  MLK’s problem with white moderates was not being a middle ground, it was that they urged delay and inaction. > I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Indeed, he himself was charting a middle ground between inaction and violence: > You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil." https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
  - diordiderot 5y ago
    I have been gravely disappointed with the climate moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the planets great stumbling block in his stride toward salvation is not the Oil Industry or the Coal Barrons, but the political pragmatist, who is more devoted to "order" than to climate justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action(Roadblocks etc)"; who arrogently believes he can set the timetable for preventing ecosystem collapse; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the wildlife to wait for "better economic conditions." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. The middle ground between inaction and violence (blowing up a pipelines & boardrooms) is not classifying gaseous hydrocarbons a form of "green energy.

xcambar 5y ago

> If animals go extinct, that is obviously unfortunate, but it pales in comparison to the prospect that we do so. I agree with the global sentiment of your comment, but let's not forget that animal extinction is 1/ well on its way and 2/ a direct precursor of human extinction.

diordiderot 5y ago

That is counter productive to keeping the earth habitable. This "considered middle ground" ideology is more dangerous than denial. Like MLK said about "white moderates".

ben_w 5y ago
The perfect is the enemy of the good. The required reduction is 99.9% of greenhouse emissions for the next millennium. No institution has ever had that power, few have lasted that long, and even those few which have lasted that long underwent significant policy changes in that time. If we can’t make saving the planet cheap enough that even the greedy and selfish prefer to do that, then we can’t win at all. But half-arsing it now gives us more tomorrows in which to create the better solution.
- AstralStorm 5y ago
  Maximally 10 extra years and waste of a lot of labor and money that could be put into building and developing nuclear power plants and more renewables.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    10 more years is needed if you want nuclear. Possibly also batteries, but that’s harder for me to estimate — we’ve got the price down, but we need way more volume.
    - heartbeats 5y ago
      It would take mere months to open back up those plants recently closed. Back in the 70s they could construct plants in 2-5 years. Chernobyl 1 began and completed construction in the same year! Has our technology gotten worse since then? Or is it just permits and bureaucracy impeding us?
      - ben_w 5y ago
        This is worldwide, not localised to one specific nation, so likely we created the bureaucracy for good reasons.
afarrell 5y ago
MLK’s problem with white moderates was not being a middle ground, it was that they urged delay and inaction. > I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Indeed, he himself was charting a middle ground between inaction and violence: > You speak of our activity in Birmingham as extreme. At first I was rather disappointed that fellow clergymen would see my nonviolent efforts as those of an extremist. I began thinking about the fact that I stand in the middle of two opposing forces in the Negro community. One is a force of complacency, made up in part of Negroes who, as a result of long years of oppression, are so drained of self respect and a sense of "somebodiness" that they have adjusted to segregation; and in part of a few middle-class Negroes who, because of a degree of academic and economic security and because in some ways they profit by segregation, have become insensitive to the problems of the masses. The other force is one of bitterness and hatred, and it comes perilously close to advocating violence. It is expressed in the various black nationalist groups that are springing up across the nation, the largest and best known being Elijah Muhammad's Muslim movement. Nourished by the Negro's frustration over the continued existence of racial discrimination, this movement is made up of people who have lost faith in America, who have absolutely repudiated Christianity, and who have concluded that the white man is an incorrigible "devil." https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham....
- diordiderot 5y ago
  I have been gravely disappointed with the climate moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the planets great stumbling block in his stride toward salvation is not the Oil Industry or the Coal Barrons, but the political pragmatist, who is more devoted to "order" than to climate justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action(Roadblocks etc)"; who arrogently believes he can set the timetable for preventing ecosystem collapse; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the wildlife to wait for "better economic conditions." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. The middle ground between inaction and violence (blowing up a pipelines & boardrooms) is not classifying gaseous hydrocarbons a form of "green energy.