3 ms·

> Every time a user does a repetitive task that should have been a loop they created themself, that waste of life is a small death, and the blood is on our indu

> Every time a user does a repetitive task that should have been a loop they created themself, that waste of life is a small death, and the blood is on our industry. The majority of people have no interest in programming, no matter how humane a language were handed to them.

donatj 5y ago
That is absolutely a myth; what we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night. At worst, they don’t know what they want; they asked for a faster horse, and we’re content to keep selling horses and feed. Watch a normal user use a computer sometime to do work without interjecting. They all do stupid repetitive tasks that take hours and should be easily automated. Look how far people get with Excel with no programming knowledge. I have seen absolutely incredible spreadsheets that do remarkable things. The will is there, but we’ve kneecap them with awful tools, and then keep repeating but lie that they liked it. I have a friend with zero background in programming who completely automated his “job” with Autohotkey. His entire work for the day ran in minutes and he just messed around the rest of the day, that underutilization is emblematic of the problem.
- underdeserver 5y ago
  I think we developers don't automate 90% of what we could. What can we expect from laypeople?
- rendall 5y ago
  You give two examples (spreadsheets, Autohotkey) that actually contradict your central thesis of no good tools. Seems like those are examples of ordinary people successfully using no-code to make their lives easier? There are so many free programming languages available to anyone interested, ranging in human comprehensibility from (the incomprehensible) brainfuck [0] to natural language interpreters for writers of interactive fiction [1], and everything in between. Visual programming languages [2], languages for children [3], languages for visual artists, for musicians, for stock traders. There's even a language using power ballad lyrics [4]! I love your sentiment that programming is for everyone, but with respect I utterly disagree that there are no good tools for ordinary people to use. If anything, there is an overwhelming, embarrassment of riches. But, maybe you are right? Maybe you have an insight that could be helpful? Share it, man! The world needs you! > ...we kneecap them with awful tools Who is this "we", Kemosabe? If you want to help make interactive narratives easier and less prone to bugs, I have a fallow side project I need help with [5]. These people seem cool [6] and could use your insights, I'm sure (seem to be defunct, but perhaps from lack of interest? Jump start it? Track them down, find out what happened?) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck [1] http://inform7.com/ http://inform7.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language#List_of_visual_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language#Li... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_educational_programming_languages#Children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_educational_programmin... [4] https://codewithrockstar.com/ https://codewithrockstar.com/ [5] https://github.com/rendall/quest-driven-development#readme https://github.com/rendall/quest-driven-development#readme [6] http://blog.interfacevision.com/ http://blog.interfacevision.com/
- fsckboy 5y ago
  > Watch a normal user use a computer sometime to do work without interjecting. They all do stupid repetitive tasks that take hours and should be easily automated. if you buy the hypothesis about autism in Baron Cohen's book, it is the noticing of and obsession with repetition that is the hallmark of autism, so it is your watches-and-does-not-interject individual who is the one who wants to program, and still not the subject of the study.

donatj 5y ago

That is absolutely a myth; what we tell ourselves so we can sleep at night. At worst, they don’t know what they want; they asked for a faster horse, and we’re content to keep selling horses and feed. Watch a normal user use a computer sometime to do work without interjecting. They all do stupid repetitive tasks that take hours and should be easily automated. Look how far people get with Excel with no programming knowledge. I have seen absolutely incredible spreadsheets that do remarkable things. The will is there, but we’ve kneecap them with awful tools, and then keep repeating but lie that they liked it. I have a friend with zero background in programming who completely automated his “job” with Autohotkey. His entire work for the day ran in minutes and he just messed around the rest of the day, that underutilization is emblematic of the problem.

underdeserver 5y ago
I think we developers don't automate 90% of what we could. What can we expect from laypeople?
rendall 5y ago
You give two examples (spreadsheets, Autohotkey) that actually contradict your central thesis of no good tools. Seems like those are examples of ordinary people successfully using no-code to make their lives easier? There are so many free programming languages available to anyone interested, ranging in human comprehensibility from (the incomprehensible) brainfuck [0] to natural language interpreters for writers of interactive fiction [1], and everything in between. Visual programming languages [2], languages for children [3], languages for visual artists, for musicians, for stock traders. There's even a language using power ballad lyrics [4]! I love your sentiment that programming is for everyone, but with respect I utterly disagree that there are no good tools for ordinary people to use. If anything, there is an overwhelming, embarrassment of riches. But, maybe you are right? Maybe you have an insight that could be helpful? Share it, man! The world needs you! > ...we kneecap them with awful tools Who is this "we", Kemosabe? If you want to help make interactive narratives easier and less prone to bugs, I have a fallow side project I need help with [5]. These people seem cool [6] and could use your insights, I'm sure (seem to be defunct, but perhaps from lack of interest? Jump start it? Track them down, find out what happened?) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck [1] http://inform7.com/ http://inform7.com/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language#List_of_visual_languages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_programming_language#Li... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_educational_programming_languages#Children https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_educational_programmin... [4] https://codewithrockstar.com/ https://codewithrockstar.com/ [5] https://github.com/rendall/quest-driven-development#readme https://github.com/rendall/quest-driven-development#readme [6] http://blog.interfacevision.com/ http://blog.interfacevision.com/
fsckboy 5y ago
> Watch a normal user use a computer sometime to do work without interjecting. They all do stupid repetitive tasks that take hours and should be easily automated. if you buy the hypothesis about autism in Baron Cohen's book, it is the noticing of and obsession with repetition that is the hallmark of autism, so it is your watches-and-does-not-interject individual who is the one who wants to program, and still not the subject of the study.