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I think Germans hope that new generation gas plants could be powered by hydrogen in the future[1]. The idea is that once we have cheap energy from wind and sola

I think Germans hope that new generation gas plants could be powered by hydrogen in the future[1]. The idea is that once we have cheap energy from wind and solar, it can be stored in hydrogen. Problem is safe storage of hydrogen[2] and problematic relationship with Russia[3] [1] https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/why-hydrogen-fired-power-plants-will-play-a-major-role-in-the-energy-transition/2-1-1045768 https://www.rechargenews.com/energy-transition/why-hydrogen-... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_storage [3] https://www.politico.eu/article/nord-stream-2-gas-energy-prices-europe-germany-russia-gazprom/ https://www.politico.eu/article/nord-stream-2-gas-energy-pri...

alkonaut 5y ago
Why not biogas? Not possible to produce enough?
- Chyzwar 5y ago
  Previous ideas about bio fuels created disaster in Third World countries. https://www.livekindly.co/norway-ban-palm-oil-biofuel/ https://www.livekindly.co/norway-ban-palm-oil-biofuel/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-palm-oil-deforestation-climate-change/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-palm-oil-deforestati... Initially, Europe was thinking that biofuels would be a good way to support some counties, but the result was far from good. Wind and solar are the best sources of energy, but lack of good grid scale energy storage make them impractical. Once we have good and cheap batteries to store energy, than solar and wind from Africa could resolve Europe energy needs. https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    Using palm oil for biofuel sounds like the worst idea ever. I thought biogas was normally produced from wastewater treatment and trash. Sweden does around 2TWh a year of it that way which isn’t a lot (2-3% of total energy use perhaps?) but it’s, for example the only gas used to heat stockholm.
- dathinab 5y ago
  Not a good choice, in many cases using the same space for (human) food or just a forest is a more environments friendly, more subtainable and due to the use of fertilizer sometimes more climate friendly choice (at least in the EU/Germany) It also avoid all kinds of social/human problems. And even if it's not not climate friendly it's not much worse either.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    The same space as what? Biogas is produced by rotting in wastewater plants (or that’s what I thought until someone mentioned the idea of growing stuff to make biogas but that sounded like a bad idea as you point out).
    - dathinab 5y ago
      There is only that much rotting close by bio wast, so I don't think natural bio gas makes a dent on the larger picture (but is nice for some use-cases without question). So when Germany started subvention Bio Gas it didn't took long until people started growing stuff with the intention of having "a lot of was for bio gas" (as far as I remember). Similar, probably worse, thinks happened in some "3rd world" countries as far as I remember.
jcfrei 5y ago
The biggest problem is that converting energy into hydrogen is extremely inefficient.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- doikor 5y ago
  I think the idea is to do it only run such plants when there is massive overproduction from solar/wind that makes the price of electricity zero or negative. Basically storing what can't be used at that moment. It does not matter if it is at 10 or 100% efficiency as if such storing methods did not exist the only other option would be to turn off those panels/wind turbines.
  - vardump 5y ago
    If wind power prices are negative on a regular basis, doesn't it make it unprofitable for the operators and thus eventually decrease production?
    - _hypx 5y ago
      Negative prices means they simply refuse to sell electricity, rather choosing to shut down the wind turbines instead. This BTW, also causes retail electricity prices to soar despite the cost of generation being close to zero.
freeflight 5y ago
It's even in the article; > Investments in natural gas power plants would also be deemed green if they produce emissions below 270g of CO2 equivalent per kilowatt hour (kWh), replace a more polluting fossil fuel plant, receive a construction permit by Dec. 31 2030 and plan to switch to low-carbon gases by the end of 2035. This is about keeping infrastructure in place that can be retooled for a hydrogen economy [0]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/europes-gas-firms-prime-pipelines-hydrogen-highway-2021-11-18/ https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/europes-gas-firms-prime...

alkonaut 5y ago

Why not biogas? Not possible to produce enough?

Chyzwar 5y ago
Previous ideas about bio fuels created disaster in Third World countries. https://www.livekindly.co/norway-ban-palm-oil-biofuel/ https://www.livekindly.co/norway-ban-palm-oil-biofuel/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-palm-oil-deforestation-climate-change/ https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2021-palm-oil-deforestati... Initially, Europe was thinking that biofuels would be a good way to support some counties, but the result was far from good. Wind and solar are the best sources of energy, but lack of good grid scale energy storage make them impractical. Once we have good and cheap batteries to store energy, than solar and wind from Africa could resolve Europe energy needs. https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/ https://xlinks.co/morocco-uk-power-project/
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Using palm oil for biofuel sounds like the worst idea ever. I thought biogas was normally produced from wastewater treatment and trash. Sweden does around 2TWh a year of it that way which isn’t a lot (2-3% of total energy use perhaps?) but it’s, for example the only gas used to heat stockholm.
dathinab 5y ago
Not a good choice, in many cases using the same space for (human) food or just a forest is a more environments friendly, more subtainable and due to the use of fertilizer sometimes more climate friendly choice (at least in the EU/Germany) It also avoid all kinds of social/human problems. And even if it's not not climate friendly it's not much worse either.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  The same space as what? Biogas is produced by rotting in wastewater plants (or that’s what I thought until someone mentioned the idea of growing stuff to make biogas but that sounded like a bad idea as you point out).
  - dathinab 5y ago
    There is only that much rotting close by bio wast, so I don't think natural bio gas makes a dent on the larger picture (but is nice for some use-cases without question). So when Germany started subvention Bio Gas it didn't took long until people started growing stuff with the intention of having "a lot of was for bio gas" (as far as I remember). Similar, probably worse, thinks happened in some "3rd world" countries as far as I remember.

jcfrei 5y ago

The biggest problem is that converting energy into hydrogen is extremely inefficient.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
doikor 5y ago
I think the idea is to do it only run such plants when there is massive overproduction from solar/wind that makes the price of electricity zero or negative. Basically storing what can't be used at that moment. It does not matter if it is at 10 or 100% efficiency as if such storing methods did not exist the only other option would be to turn off those panels/wind turbines.
- vardump 5y ago
  If wind power prices are negative on a regular basis, doesn't it make it unprofitable for the operators and thus eventually decrease production?
  - _hypx 5y ago
    Negative prices means they simply refuse to sell electricity, rather choosing to shut down the wind turbines instead. This BTW, also causes retail electricity prices to soar despite the cost of generation being close to zero.

freeflight 5y ago

It's even in the article; > Investments in natural gas power plants would also be deemed green if they produce emissions below 270g of CO2 equivalent per kilowatt hour (kWh), replace a more polluting fossil fuel plant, receive a construction permit by Dec. 31 2030 and plan to switch to low-carbon gases by the end of 2035. This is about keeping infrastructure in place that can be retooled for a hydrogen economy [0]. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/europes-gas-firms-prime-pipelines-hydrogen-highway-2021-11-18/ https://www.reuters.com/business/cop/europes-gas-firms-prime...