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Yes and this type of doublespeak is coming from the top down in many countries. It’s alarming because “they don’t believe in science” has become a divisive wea

Yes and this type of doublespeak is coming from the top down in many countries. It’s alarming because “they don’t believe in science” has become a divisive weapon that hand waves away all scientific nuance. The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Also, previous infection confers protection that is at least as effective as vaccination. This has been consistently observed since the beginning of the pandemic. Vaccines can save the lives of many vulnerable people though; it’s an amazing tool and its use is certainly justified by science. But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. (evolution of viral resistance is one example; many experts are aware of the phenomenon but commenters here have been misled to believe that an airborne virus circulating the planet can be eradicated ‘if only everyone got vaccinated’)

throw0101a 5y ago
> The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Of course they need a vaccine. Just because you don't have symptoms does not mean (a) that you're not carrying it, and (b) can't infect someone who may not be as healthy as you. Further it's difficult to predict ahead of time how an individual will react to being infected. A 20-year-old takes up an ICU bed just as effectively as a 40- or 60-year-old: they're less likely, but it can still happen. Which is why people in higher risk profiles get priority. But just because certain folks may get things first doesn't mean other shouldn't later. COVID can also mutate just as well in a young person as an older person. > But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. The unvaccinated make up the vast majority of hospital and ICU admissions. And by "majority" we're talking about 90-100% in many places. "Unvaccinated 60 times more likely to end up in ICU with COVID-19, Ontario data shows": * https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitalization-risk-ontario/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitaliza... And then if someone who is vaccinated perhaps has a serious (car) accident or heart attack and there are no ICU beds for them.
- leereeves 5y ago
  > and there are no ICU beds for them According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients: "The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day, with patients housed in hallways, conference rooms and cafeterias not as exceptional cases, but as a matter of routine.[1]" It's unfair to scapegoat the unvaccinated for systemic failures that aren't really due to Covid at all. 1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occupancy-covid-19-hallway-healthcare-1.5784075 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occu...
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    Saying that adding more load to an already overloaded system is fine isn't as helpful to the argument as you think…
    - leereeves 5y ago
      I'm not claiming it's fine. I'm vaccinated and I try to convince others to get vaccinated. But many people contribute to the problem with a variety of unhealthy life choices, and blaming one particular group for the problem, and writing policies to punish that group (many of whom also happen to be the PM's political opponents), is the worst kind of politics. And suggesting that the lack of healthcare in Canada is caused by the unvaccinated is simply dishonest.
      - throw0101a 5y ago
        > But many people contribute to the problem with a variety of unhealthy life choices, and blaming one particular group for the problem, and writing policies to punish that group (many of whom also happen to be the PM's political opponents), is the worst kind of politics. Most other unhealthy life choices are low-moving train wrecks and can be accommodated for: it's not like the obesity and diabetes rates go from 15% to 40% in the span of six months. A good portion people's choices can be accommodated for 'simply' by looking at trend lines and planning accordingly. > And suggesting that the lack of healthcare in Canada is caused by the unvaccinated is simply dishonest. Any problems that any healthcare system in the world had were (and are being) exacerbated by the sudden surge of COVID patients. The unvaccinated-by-choice are needlessly making things worse for a whole lot of people who need a hospital/ICU bed through no fault of their won.

throw0101a 5y ago

> The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Of course they need a vaccine. Just because you don't have symptoms does not mean (a) that you're not carrying it, and (b) can't infect someone who may not be as healthy as you. Further it's difficult to predict ahead of time how an individual will react to being infected. A 20-year-old takes up an ICU bed just as effectively as a 40- or 60-year-old: they're less likely, but it can still happen. Which is why people in higher risk profiles get priority. But just because certain folks may get things first doesn't mean other shouldn't later. COVID can also mutate just as well in a young person as an older person. > But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. The unvaccinated make up the vast majority of hospital and ICU admissions. And by "majority" we're talking about 90-100% in many places. "Unvaccinated 60 times more likely to end up in ICU with COVID-19, Ontario data shows": * https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitalization-risk-ontario/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitaliza... And then if someone who is vaccinated perhaps has a serious (car) accident or heart attack and there are no ICU beds for them.

leereeves 5y ago
> and there are no ICU beds for them According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients: "The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day, with patients housed in hallways, conference rooms and cafeterias not as exceptional cases, but as a matter of routine.[1]" It's unfair to scapegoat the unvaccinated for systemic failures that aren't really due to Covid at all. 1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occupancy-covid-19-hallway-healthcare-1.5784075 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occu...
- throw0101a 5y ago
  Saying that adding more load to an already overloaded system is fine isn't as helpful to the argument as you think…
  - leereeves 5y ago
    I'm not claiming it's fine. I'm vaccinated and I try to convince others to get vaccinated. But many people contribute to the problem with a variety of unhealthy life choices, and blaming one particular group for the problem, and writing policies to punish that group (many of whom also happen to be the PM's political opponents), is the worst kind of politics. And suggesting that the lack of healthcare in Canada is caused by the unvaccinated is simply dishonest.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > But many people contribute to the problem with a variety of unhealthy life choices, and blaming one particular group for the problem, and writing policies to punish that group (many of whom also happen to be the PM's political opponents), is the worst kind of politics. Most other unhealthy life choices are low-moving train wrecks and can be accommodated for: it's not like the obesity and diabetes rates go from 15% to 40% in the span of six months. A good portion people's choices can be accommodated for 'simply' by looking at trend lines and planning accordingly. > And suggesting that the lack of healthcare in Canada is caused by the unvaccinated is simply dishonest. Any problems that any healthcare system in the world had were (and are being) exacerbated by the sudden surge of COVID patients. The unvaccinated-by-choice are needlessly making things worse for a whole lot of people who need a hospital/ICU bed through no fault of their won.