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This would make a huge difference in battery life for Linux laptops with secure boot enabled. Lots of modern laptops don’t even properly support S3 sleep proper

This would make a huge difference in battery life for Linux laptops with secure boot enabled. Lots of modern laptops don’t even properly support S3 sleep properly (looking at you dell) and want to be able to hibernate to save power.

masklinn 5y ago
> Lots of modern laptops don’t even properly support S3 sleep properly (looking at you dell) and want to be able to hibernate to save power. "modern standby" is such a scam and shit show. And completely opposite that, I was a bit shocked how aggressive modern macos (at least on M1 machines) are at hibernating, I have had to get used to `caffeinate` long-running process because on battery if that's not in use as soon as the screen turns off the machine stops doing anything, even with "low power mode" disabled. I expect there's a pmset somewhere to change that (as there is an option in the UI when on power adapter), but with the battery life of the new devices I've kinda stopped plugging it in (even at my desk).
- yokoprime 5y ago
  Serious question: i'm back at daily driving macOS at work after using other platforms for a while. Caffeine vs Amphetamine (app), whats the preferred one these days?
  - masklinn 5y ago
    Couldn't say, I'm using caffeinate because it's builtin, and more or less every time I need the feature it's because of a dev / shell thing, so the ability to run `caffeinate <command>` or `caffeinate -w <pid-of-program-I-forgot-to-run-through-caffeinate >` is what I need. I'm pretty sure they both work through the standard power assertions API[0], so nothing precludes having both (in fact if you have amphetamine you necessarily have both) and using whichever's more convenient for your needs at any time. Unlike AlDente (versus native) there should not be any conflict between caffeinate and amphetamine, because both simply signal to the system that some forms of sleep / power saving should not be used. If caffeinate says the disks can't idle-sleep and amphetamine says the system can't idle sleep, then neither will happen and that's that. [0] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/iokit/iopmlib_h https://developer.apple.com/documentation/iokit/iopmlib_h
  - arminiusreturns 5y ago
    May I suggest https://keepingyouawake.app/ https://keepingyouawake.app/ As a gnu/linux person forced on Mac for work, this was what I settled on that worked reliably for me. (I found I would often crash iterm2 or alacritty and lose my terminal based caffiene commands)
- marcan_42 5y ago
  > "modern standby" is such a scam and shit show. On x86, maybe. Try booting an M1 Mac, turning off the screen (without closing the lid - that's what makes it go to sleep instantly), SSHing in, and running a shell loop that prints out the date every minute. I left it running and the thing didn't even drop from 100% battery after 3 hours, when macOS finally decided to go into real standby and that killed the connection. Did it for another 3 hours and I was at 98%. That's 2% battery usage per 3 hours for a system with an OS running, active WiFi, and an open TCP connection. "Modern standby" works when your hardware has good power management. FWIW, I've never seen an M1 go into hibernation other than when the battery is about to die. The normal lid closed state is true sleep, not hibernation. You can tell because waking up from actual hibernation actually takes a progress bar and a few seconds.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- gloryjulio 5y ago
  And this is why I am forced to use mac, where I can safely close the lid and expect the battery to last
  - cma 5y ago
    Unless you have an SD card in due to them charging 3-5X more than market rates for storage
    - seniorivn 5y ago
      that's not accurate they just force you to buy the most expensive storage option there is
trelane 5y ago
Is this only true of Windows hardware, or does it include hardware designed for Linux?
- bananabernhard 5y ago
  Does consumer hardware designed for linux even exist? Even bigger shops like system76 buy preconfigured laptops and install coreboot and PopOS! on it.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - masklinn 5y ago
    The XPS13 DE could be construed as that, it's only available with Linux, has different hardware than the standard XPS, and is very routinely called "Linux Developer Edition" by the press (though I couldn't say if Dell ever called it that).
    - csdvrx 5y ago
      I explored the situation on a few dells, and they have obvious bugs in their bios ACPI tables: it's as if they had been written by an intern discovering this technology. Long story short, on at least a few ones I explored deeply (The 7275 or the 9250 can't remember) the dell just can't sleep right, even on Windows. What saves the day is Windows proper sleep support, including hybrid sleep, that prepares for the worst (save an S4 hibernation image) and hopes for the best (wakes up time to time to check what's left in be battery, to decide when to give up when the power goes below what's called the sleep budget, to ensure the laptop will be able to wake up) The beauty of it is when laptops have a wrong bios that just cant sleep, windows hides the bug away. The sad part of it is that Windows takes the blame (the laptol takes a long time to wake up from suspend to disk, and shows the power has been almost exhusted) for the manufacturer incompetence. I think this is why they introduced a change early on in Windows 10 that when tne measurements at the beginning of the sleep showed the power was going down with a dangerously steep slope, it was a clear sign Windows was running on a poorly designed laptop, and that it should abandon all hope of s2idle working right, and instead just powed off the poor laptop to put it out of its misery and instead try to do a fast start with the hibernation image the next time The worst part is that the dangerously incompetent people at dell, unaware of their own incompetence (they couldnt write proper ACPI sleep in the first place) decided to double down on the stupidity and did some weird things to mislead windows and prevent it from giving up on s2idle.... which is why dell latops have acquired a reputation they may catch fire when in a bad. It's all both funny and sad, so I applaud lenovo for finding ways to make S3 sleep work on laptops like the x10 gen1, which uses a generation of intel CPU where the excuse of manufacturer of 'made for linux' laptops is that S3 can't work because it was no longer supported by Intel anymore...

masklinn 5y ago

> Lots of modern laptops don’t even properly support S3 sleep properly (looking at you dell) and want to be able to hibernate to save power. "modern standby" is such a scam and shit show. And completely opposite that, I was a bit shocked how aggressive modern macos (at least on M1 machines) are at hibernating, I have had to get used to `caffeinate` long-running process because on battery if that's not in use as soon as the screen turns off the machine stops doing anything, even with "low power mode" disabled. I expect there's a pmset somewhere to change that (as there is an option in the UI when on power adapter), but with the battery life of the new devices I've kinda stopped plugging it in (even at my desk).

yokoprime 5y ago
Serious question: i'm back at daily driving macOS at work after using other platforms for a while. Caffeine vs Amphetamine (app), whats the preferred one these days?
- masklinn 5y ago
  Couldn't say, I'm using caffeinate because it's builtin, and more or less every time I need the feature it's because of a dev / shell thing, so the ability to run `caffeinate <command>` or `caffeinate -w <pid-of-program-I-forgot-to-run-through-caffeinate >` is what I need. I'm pretty sure they both work through the standard power assertions API[0], so nothing precludes having both (in fact if you have amphetamine you necessarily have both) and using whichever's more convenient for your needs at any time. Unlike AlDente (versus native) there should not be any conflict between caffeinate and amphetamine, because both simply signal to the system that some forms of sleep / power saving should not be used. If caffeinate says the disks can't idle-sleep and amphetamine says the system can't idle sleep, then neither will happen and that's that. [0] https://developer.apple.com/documentation/iokit/iopmlib_h https://developer.apple.com/documentation/iokit/iopmlib_h
- arminiusreturns 5y ago
  May I suggest https://keepingyouawake.app/ https://keepingyouawake.app/ As a gnu/linux person forced on Mac for work, this was what I settled on that worked reliably for me. (I found I would often crash iterm2 or alacritty and lose my terminal based caffiene commands)
marcan_42 5y ago
> "modern standby" is such a scam and shit show. On x86, maybe. Try booting an M1 Mac, turning off the screen (without closing the lid - that's what makes it go to sleep instantly), SSHing in, and running a shell loop that prints out the date every minute. I left it running and the thing didn't even drop from 100% battery after 3 hours, when macOS finally decided to go into real standby and that killed the connection. Did it for another 3 hours and I was at 98%. That's 2% battery usage per 3 hours for a system with an OS running, active WiFi, and an open TCP connection. "Modern standby" works when your hardware has good power management. FWIW, I've never seen an M1 go into hibernation other than when the battery is about to die. The normal lid closed state is true sleep, not hibernation. You can tell because waking up from actual hibernation actually takes a progress bar and a few seconds.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
gloryjulio 5y ago
And this is why I am forced to use mac, where I can safely close the lid and expect the battery to last
- cma 5y ago
  Unless you have an SD card in due to them charging 3-5X more than market rates for storage
  - seniorivn 5y ago
    that's not accurate they just force you to buy the most expensive storage option there is

trelane 5y ago

Is this only true of Windows hardware, or does it include hardware designed for Linux?

bananabernhard 5y ago
Does consumer hardware designed for linux even exist? Even bigger shops like system76 buy preconfigured laptops and install coreboot and PopOS! on it.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- masklinn 5y ago
  The XPS13 DE could be construed as that, it's only available with Linux, has different hardware than the standard XPS, and is very routinely called "Linux Developer Edition" by the press (though I couldn't say if Dell ever called it that).
  - csdvrx 5y ago
    I explored the situation on a few dells, and they have obvious bugs in their bios ACPI tables: it's as if they had been written by an intern discovering this technology. Long story short, on at least a few ones I explored deeply (The 7275 or the 9250 can't remember) the dell just can't sleep right, even on Windows. What saves the day is Windows proper sleep support, including hybrid sleep, that prepares for the worst (save an S4 hibernation image) and hopes for the best (wakes up time to time to check what's left in be battery, to decide when to give up when the power goes below what's called the sleep budget, to ensure the laptop will be able to wake up) The beauty of it is when laptops have a wrong bios that just cant sleep, windows hides the bug away. The sad part of it is that Windows takes the blame (the laptol takes a long time to wake up from suspend to disk, and shows the power has been almost exhusted) for the manufacturer incompetence. I think this is why they introduced a change early on in Windows 10 that when tne measurements at the beginning of the sleep showed the power was going down with a dangerously steep slope, it was a clear sign Windows was running on a poorly designed laptop, and that it should abandon all hope of s2idle working right, and instead just powed off the poor laptop to put it out of its misery and instead try to do a fast start with the hibernation image the next time The worst part is that the dangerously incompetent people at dell, unaware of their own incompetence (they couldnt write proper ACPI sleep in the first place) decided to double down on the stupidity and did some weird things to mislead windows and prevent it from giving up on s2idle.... which is why dell latops have acquired a reputation they may catch fire when in a bad. It's all both funny and sad, so I applaud lenovo for finding ways to make S3 sleep work on laptops like the x10 gen1, which uses a generation of intel CPU where the excuse of manufacturer of 'made for linux' laptops is that S3 can't work because it was no longer supported by Intel anymore...