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That's an interesting point to make and defendable but these declarations mentioned in another comment, I will assume to be true, coming from Trudeau, Canada's

That's an interesting point to make and defendable but these declarations mentioned in another comment, I will assume to be true, coming from Trudeau, Canada's president: “They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist....This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?" I have taken both shots, and will take the third but these declarations are appropriate for a mad man, not a country leader.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
finite_jest 5y ago
FYI, Canada does not have a president. Trudeau is the prime minister. However, you are right in that his quote (which I think was in French originally) is just awful name-calling.
criticaltinker 5y ago
Yes and this type of doublespeak is coming from the top down in many countries. It’s alarming because “they don’t believe in science” has become a divisive weapon that hand waves away all scientific nuance. The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Also, previous infection confers protection that is at least as effective as vaccination. This has been consistently observed since the beginning of the pandemic. Vaccines can save the lives of many vulnerable people though; it’s an amazing tool and its use is certainly justified by science. But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. (evolution of viral resistance is one example; many experts are aware of the phenomenon but commenters here have been misled to believe that an airborne virus circulating the planet can be eradicated ‘if only everyone got vaccinated’)
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Of course they need a vaccine. Just because you don't have symptoms does not mean (a) that you're not carrying it, and (b) can't infect someone who may not be as healthy as you. Further it's difficult to predict ahead of time how an individual will react to being infected. A 20-year-old takes up an ICU bed just as effectively as a 40- or 60-year-old: they're less likely, but it can still happen. Which is why people in higher risk profiles get priority. But just because certain folks may get things first doesn't mean other shouldn't later. COVID can also mutate just as well in a young person as an older person. > But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. The unvaccinated make up the vast majority of hospital and ICU admissions. And by "majority" we're talking about 90-100% in many places. "Unvaccinated 60 times more likely to end up in ICU with COVID-19, Ontario data shows": * https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitalization-risk-ontario/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitaliza... And then if someone who is vaccinated perhaps has a serious (car) accident or heart attack and there are no ICU beds for them.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    > and there are no ICU beds for them According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients: "The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day, with patients housed in hallways, conference rooms and cafeterias not as exceptional cases, but as a matter of routine.[1]" It's unfair to scapegoat the unvaccinated for systemic failures that aren't really due to Covid at all. 1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occupancy-covid-19-hallway-healthcare-1.5784075 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occu...
    - 5y ago
devwastaken 5y ago
Can confirm Trudeau is right. Most of these vocal anti vaxxers are what he claims. It goes with the territory. Those that want to believe everyone else is wrong and they are the sole correct individual also fall into the tropes of superiority complexes's of various ism's. Having good reason to not be vaccinated isn't anti-vax. For example, active blood clotting. Anti vax is where an individual believes, with no knowledge, or misapplied knowledge, believes it's "wrong". Notice the "belief" involved. They don't want to listen to doctors and nobody can tell them nothing. It's the definition of applied ignorance. These people have killed plenty of others. On the count of people killed and economic costs - it would be anti vaxxers that are the "mad men".
- blub 5y ago
  That's very heavy framing in order to make something quite banal - rejecting a medical treatment as is their right - into an evil action. Like it or not, this is what it means to be a liberal democracy. "These people" haven't killed anyone and there is no court of law that would condemn them. The economic costs are to blame on a bumbling government that failed to prepare for pandemic scenarios and doesn't have any ideas on how to deal with the virus except through vaccines. Unfortunately for them, Omicron's not too fazed about said vaccines, making the whole exercise more and more absurd.
- shoulderfake 5y ago
  What an idiot...
blub 5y ago
Blaming the people that don't take the vaccine is the last refuge of the incompetent politician. What's even more ridiculous is that there's no way they'll be able to put three vaccines into whoever's left before Omicron comes and goes.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

finite_jest 5y ago

FYI, Canada does not have a president. Trudeau is the prime minister. However, you are right in that his quote (which I think was in French originally) is just awful name-calling.

criticaltinker 5y ago

Yes and this type of doublespeak is coming from the top down in many countries. It’s alarming because “they don’t believe in science” has become a divisive weapon that hand waves away all scientific nuance. The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Also, previous infection confers protection that is at least as effective as vaccination. This has been consistently observed since the beginning of the pandemic. Vaccines can save the lives of many vulnerable people though; it’s an amazing tool and its use is certainly justified by science. But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. (evolution of viral resistance is one example; many experts are aware of the phenomenon but commenters here have been misled to believe that an airborne virus circulating the planet can be eradicated ‘if only everyone got vaccinated’)

throw0101a 5y ago
> The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Of course they need a vaccine. Just because you don't have symptoms does not mean (a) that you're not carrying it, and (b) can't infect someone who may not be as healthy as you. Further it's difficult to predict ahead of time how an individual will react to being infected. A 20-year-old takes up an ICU bed just as effectively as a 40- or 60-year-old: they're less likely, but it can still happen. Which is why people in higher risk profiles get priority. But just because certain folks may get things first doesn't mean other shouldn't later. COVID can also mutate just as well in a young person as an older person. > But using economic and financial engineering to force everyone to get vaccinated? There is no scientific evidence supporting that decision, and the second and third order consequences are completely unstudied. The unvaccinated make up the vast majority of hospital and ICU admissions. And by "majority" we're talking about 90-100% in many places. "Unvaccinated 60 times more likely to end up in ICU with COVID-19, Ontario data shows": * https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitalization-risk-ontario/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8230051/covid-vaccine-hospitaliza... And then if someone who is vaccinated perhaps has a serious (car) accident or heart attack and there are no ICU beds for them.
- leereeves 5y ago
  > and there are no ICU beds for them According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients: "The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day, with patients housed in hallways, conference rooms and cafeterias not as exceptional cases, but as a matter of routine.[1]" It's unfair to scapegoat the unvaccinated for systemic failures that aren't really due to Covid at all. 1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occupancy-covid-19-hallway-healthcare-1.5784075 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occu...
  - 5y ago

devwastaken 5y ago

Can confirm Trudeau is right. Most of these vocal anti vaxxers are what he claims. It goes with the territory. Those that want to believe everyone else is wrong and they are the sole correct individual also fall into the tropes of superiority complexes's of various ism's. Having good reason to not be vaccinated isn't anti-vax. For example, active blood clotting. Anti vax is where an individual believes, with no knowledge, or misapplied knowledge, believes it's "wrong". Notice the "belief" involved. They don't want to listen to doctors and nobody can tell them nothing. It's the definition of applied ignorance. These people have killed plenty of others. On the count of people killed and economic costs - it would be anti vaxxers that are the "mad men".

blub 5y ago
That's very heavy framing in order to make something quite banal - rejecting a medical treatment as is their right - into an evil action. Like it or not, this is what it means to be a liberal democracy. "These people" haven't killed anyone and there is no court of law that would condemn them. The economic costs are to blame on a bumbling government that failed to prepare for pandemic scenarios and doesn't have any ideas on how to deal with the virus except through vaccines. Unfortunately for them, Omicron's not too fazed about said vaccines, making the whole exercise more and more absurd.
shoulderfake 5y ago
What an idiot...

blub 5y ago

Blaming the people that don't take the vaccine is the last refuge of the incompetent politician. What's even more ridiculous is that there's no way they'll be able to put three vaccines into whoever's left before Omicron comes and goes.