3 ms·

These US vs EU cities discussions appear a lot on HN and when I see people lamenting that their European city is too car-centric I always wonder if they mean a

by smcl 5y ago

These US vs EU cities discussions appear a lot on HN and when I see people lamenting that their European city is too car-centric I always wonder if they mean a) their city is not the public transport utopia people want to believe it is b) their city is completely unlivable without a car Because this is quite important distinction - I suspect that many Europeans want to convey point a) but are potentially being understood as saying point b).

ido 5y ago
Depends which city but it’s A for decent sized cities in central/north/Western Europe (less so for eastern and Southern Europe although major cities there will also be like that). Even midsized towns in Germany, Austria & Switzerland will be pretty doable without a car. In less affluent countries like Poland and Czechia (I have lots of friends in both and lots of relatives in the latter) outside the major cities people expect to drive (it might still be possible just less convenient than in the German speaking countries to rely on transit). I have Greek friends who say it’s similarly inconvenient in many parts of Greece. But I suspect almost nowhere urban in Europe will be completely unlivable without a car.
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Public transport is not utopia, yes you can go everywhere but you'll be squeezed in with 50 other people (or worse) in a can.
- smcl 5y ago
  I regularly go "in a can" (tram) with more than 50 other people and it's really quite comfortable and pleasant.
bedobi 5y ago
In the case of Stockholm, public transport is better than places like LA and Brisbane Australia (which isn't saying much), but hilariously bad compared to Tokyo and London. So it's somewhere in between. livability without a car likewise is OK in inner city and immediate surroundings, but quickly gets a lot worse the further out you get. (unlike eg Tokyo, where even suburbs very far from the inner city are very convenient and liveable without a car)
- dustintrex 5y ago
  Genuinely curious: what do you find "hilariously bad" about public transport in Stockholm? I've never lived there, but as a casual visitor the T-bana, trams, ferries etc seem to work just fine.
  - bedobi 5y ago
    Often, trains and subways will straight up not run because "there were leaves or snow on the tracks" or whatever. Like, OK? No other city I've ever lived has had that problem, lol? (let alone that often! it happens all the time) Punctuality is pretty bad, which wouldn't be a problem if frequency was good, but it's not, so... It can be pretty unsafe and unpleasant. Basically, it's "OK" in inner city and immediate surroundings, but quickly gets a lot worse the further out you get.
    - cricalix 5y ago
      Dublin’s light and intercity rail is affected by leaves too. It’s a major problem for rail adhesion in autumn.
      - aix1 5y ago
        London's the same. Here is more info from Transport for London: https://madeby.tfl.gov.uk/2019/10/07/leaves-on-the-track/ https://madeby.tfl.gov.uk/2019/10/07/leaves-on-the-track/
    - brabel 5y ago
      Almost every big city has problems with trains running late or being cancelled, I think it's more common than you might think. I live in Stockholm and before the pandemic (when I commuted daily on the pendeltåg and before that, with the roslagsbana) I agree with you it could be pretty bad (there were several days where they simply closed off the trains and everyone had to squeeze into much smaller replacement buses, and a few times when even the replacement buses didn't run - you had to find a cab to get home... and good luck finding one.. but at least the government covered the fee if you could show there was no other alternative at the time) but having lived in a few other countries, I've seen all sorts of crap like that as well, and other things that nearly never happen in Stockholm are quite routine at other places, like stations and trains where passengers squeeze like sardines, buses so full some people go hanging outside the doors (the bus driver is supposed to close the door, ofc, but the situation is so precarious they try to let in as many as they can as they know how terrible it is to be just left behind because there's no space), robberies on night buses (which to my knowledge can happen in Stockholm but are extremely rare)...

by smcl 5y ago

ido 5y ago

Depends which city but it’s A for decent sized cities in central/north/Western Europe (less so for eastern and Southern Europe although major cities there will also be like that). Even midsized towns in Germany, Austria & Switzerland will be pretty doable without a car. In less affluent countries like Poland and Czechia (I have lots of friends in both and lots of relatives in the latter) outside the major cities people expect to drive (it might still be possible just less convenient than in the German speaking countries to rely on transit). I have Greek friends who say it’s similarly inconvenient in many parts of Greece. But I suspect almost nowhere urban in Europe will be completely unlivable without a car.

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

Public transport is not utopia, yes you can go everywhere but you'll be squeezed in with 50 other people (or worse) in a can.

smcl 5y ago
I regularly go "in a can" (tram) with more than 50 other people and it's really quite comfortable and pleasant.

bedobi 5y ago

In the case of Stockholm, public transport is better than places like LA and Brisbane Australia (which isn't saying much), but hilariously bad compared to Tokyo and London. So it's somewhere in between. livability without a car likewise is OK in inner city and immediate surroundings, but quickly gets a lot worse the further out you get. (unlike eg Tokyo, where even suburbs very far from the inner city are very convenient and liveable without a car)

dustintrex 5y ago
Genuinely curious: what do you find "hilariously bad" about public transport in Stockholm? I've never lived there, but as a casual visitor the T-bana, trams, ferries etc seem to work just fine.
- bedobi 5y ago
  Often, trains and subways will straight up not run because "there were leaves or snow on the tracks" or whatever. Like, OK? No other city I've ever lived has had that problem, lol? (let alone that often! it happens all the time) Punctuality is pretty bad, which wouldn't be a problem if frequency was good, but it's not, so... It can be pretty unsafe and unpleasant. Basically, it's "OK" in inner city and immediate surroundings, but quickly gets a lot worse the further out you get.
  - cricalix 5y ago
    Dublin’s light and intercity rail is affected by leaves too. It’s a major problem for rail adhesion in autumn.
    - aix1 5y ago
      London's the same. Here is more info from Transport for London: https://madeby.tfl.gov.uk/2019/10/07/leaves-on-the-track/ https://madeby.tfl.gov.uk/2019/10/07/leaves-on-the-track/
  - brabel 5y ago
    Almost every big city has problems with trains running late or being cancelled, I think it's more common than you might think. I live in Stockholm and before the pandemic (when I commuted daily on the pendeltåg and before that, with the roslagsbana) I agree with you it could be pretty bad (there were several days where they simply closed off the trains and everyone had to squeeze into much smaller replacement buses, and a few times when even the replacement buses didn't run - you had to find a cab to get home... and good luck finding one.. but at least the government covered the fee if you could show there was no other alternative at the time) but having lived in a few other countries, I've seen all sorts of crap like that as well, and other things that nearly never happen in Stockholm are quite routine at other places, like stations and trains where passengers squeeze like sardines, buses so full some people go hanging outside the doors (the bus driver is supposed to close the door, ofc, but the situation is so precarious they try to let in as many as they can as they know how terrible it is to be just left behind because there's no space), robberies on night buses (which to my knowledge can happen in Stockholm but are extremely rare)...