5 ms·

All of the payment system processes are structured around banks rather than individuals . What if a similar transaction error was committed by an individual or

All of the payment system processes are structured around banks rather than individuals . What if a similar transaction error was committed by an individual or a business managed by an individual, the amount of hardship and pain they have to go through , before all those transactions could ever be reversed.

duxup 5y ago
I don’t know about if I made the transaction but I had a check stolen recently, someone edited the name and deposited it for themself. I went to the bank, filled out a page, signed and got my money back instantly.
- zaidf 5y ago
  In my early 20s, I deposited a 5 figure check from a client for a contract gig. The bank cleared it. Then it turned out the client had a record of writing fraudulent checks. Common sense would dictate I was a victim of fraud. But my bank (Wells Fargo) decided to close my lone bank account of 5 years for "suspicious activity."
  - winternett 5y ago
    Wells Fargo has treated my very well as a client for the past 11 years... After I sued them... lol.
    - zrobotics 5y ago
      They treat their clients so well that, out of fear of you not being able to access online banking, their passwords aren't case sensitive. Why yes, that does mean that they are storing passwords in plaintext, but it's just so they can make their clients lives easier.
      - davidgh 5y ago
        Not necessarily. They could be performing a “lower case” function on all passwords before hashing them.
  - _jal 5y ago
    They'll fraudulently open accounts for you too, so it all balances out.
  - belter 5y ago
    “A banker lends you an umbrella when the sun is shining and wants it back when it rains” https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/a_banker_lends_you_an_umbrella_when_the_sun_is_shining_and_wants_it_back_wh/ https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/a_b...
  - duxup 5y ago
    I should probably say my experience was with a credit union ;)
- wielebny 5y ago
  Forged check is more or less a bank error.
avianlyric 5y ago
> What if a similar transaction error was committed by an individual or a business managed by an individual, the amount of hardship and pain they have to go through , before all those transactions could ever be reversed. What makes you think these transactions can be reversed? In the U.K. most inter-bank transactions are non-reversible for a whole host of reasons. When a bank “reverses” a transaction, what that usually means is they sent an email to the receiving bank to pretty please send the money back. There’s 50/50 odds the receiving bank still has the money and is interested in helping you.
- danielmg 5y ago
  FPS Bank Error Recovery is a part of the scheme rules. The money comes back. https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pay.UK%20FPS%20Service%20Principles%20-%20December%202020.pdf https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pay.UK...
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    There is no FPS message that allows you to unilaterally reverse a payment as a sending institution. It requires the consent of the receiving institution, and there’s no guarantee they’ll consent, or even have the ability to. If the person receiving the money has moved it on, then it gone, FPS BER won’t save you. No receiving institution is going to voluntarily take on liability for another banks fuck up. At best they help you recover the money because the scheme makes them be helpful, but that’s no guarantee of actual recovery.
    - Diggsey 5y ago
      If someone drops their wallet by accident, and you take it, you are still stealing. The ultimate "source of truth" for payments is not the payment system, but the law, so if a payment was made in error, then the receiver has a legal responsibility to return the money. > o receiving institution is going to voluntarily take on liability for another banks fuck up. That's not how liability works at all... If a large amount of money is erroneously deposited into your account, you don't get to keep it. Returning the money doesn't make you "liable" for anything, it's the opposite. If you spend that money, then you're going to have to pay it back, and if you can't, then you can end up in prison.
dan-robertson 5y ago
If someone sends you money by mistake it is not yours and you should return it (the easiest way to do that is to call your bank and ask them to revert the transaction[1]). If you do not return it then it is theft and you may be prosecuted. If a company accidentally sends another company money then things are usually resolved quickly and professionally with a phone call. If a company accidentally sends lots of people small amounts of money then the loss is balanced against the cost of getting it back by contacting all the people and likely some will be returned and some will be stolen. If the accidental transfer is really accidental pay then undoing will be complicated/impossible so if the amount is small enough maybe just pay less the following month (if it’s allowed by minimum wage laws?) and write off people who quit before the company is made whole, though this can be complicated if the error happens towards the end of the tax year or because of taxes that are assessed e.g. monthly instead of annually. [1] there’s a common scam that goes roughly like: 1. Someone sends you ‘too much’ money. 2. They ask you to return the money minus some goodwill payment. 3. They clawback their initial transfer but you can’t claw yours back. So that’s why trying to get the original transfer cancelled is better than trying to return or partially return funds manually.

duxup 5y ago

I don’t know about if I made the transaction but I had a check stolen recently, someone edited the name and deposited it for themself. I went to the bank, filled out a page, signed and got my money back instantly.

zaidf 5y ago
In my early 20s, I deposited a 5 figure check from a client for a contract gig. The bank cleared it. Then it turned out the client had a record of writing fraudulent checks. Common sense would dictate I was a victim of fraud. But my bank (Wells Fargo) decided to close my lone bank account of 5 years for "suspicious activity."
- winternett 5y ago
  Wells Fargo has treated my very well as a client for the past 11 years... After I sued them... lol.
  - zrobotics 5y ago
    They treat their clients so well that, out of fear of you not being able to access online banking, their passwords aren't case sensitive. Why yes, that does mean that they are storing passwords in plaintext, but it's just so they can make their clients lives easier.
    - davidgh 5y ago
      Not necessarily. They could be performing a “lower case” function on all passwords before hashing them.
- _jal 5y ago
  They'll fraudulently open accounts for you too, so it all balances out.
- belter 5y ago
  “A banker lends you an umbrella when the sun is shining and wants it back when it rains” https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/a_banker_lends_you_an_umbrella_when_the_sun_is_shining_and_wants_it_back_wh/ https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/a_b...
- duxup 5y ago
  I should probably say my experience was with a credit union ;)
wielebny 5y ago
Forged check is more or less a bank error.

avianlyric 5y ago

> What if a similar transaction error was committed by an individual or a business managed by an individual, the amount of hardship and pain they have to go through , before all those transactions could ever be reversed. What makes you think these transactions can be reversed? In the U.K. most inter-bank transactions are non-reversible for a whole host of reasons. When a bank “reverses” a transaction, what that usually means is they sent an email to the receiving bank to pretty please send the money back. There’s 50/50 odds the receiving bank still has the money and is interested in helping you.

danielmg 5y ago
FPS Bank Error Recovery is a part of the scheme rules. The money comes back. https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pay.UK%20FPS%20Service%20Principles%20-%20December%202020.pdf https://www.fasterpayments.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pay.UK...
- avianlyric 5y ago
  There is no FPS message that allows you to unilaterally reverse a payment as a sending institution. It requires the consent of the receiving institution, and there’s no guarantee they’ll consent, or even have the ability to. If the person receiving the money has moved it on, then it gone, FPS BER won’t save you. No receiving institution is going to voluntarily take on liability for another banks fuck up. At best they help you recover the money because the scheme makes them be helpful, but that’s no guarantee of actual recovery.
  - Diggsey 5y ago
    If someone drops their wallet by accident, and you take it, you are still stealing. The ultimate "source of truth" for payments is not the payment system, but the law, so if a payment was made in error, then the receiver has a legal responsibility to return the money. > o receiving institution is going to voluntarily take on liability for another banks fuck up. That's not how liability works at all... If a large amount of money is erroneously deposited into your account, you don't get to keep it. Returning the money doesn't make you "liable" for anything, it's the opposite. If you spend that money, then you're going to have to pay it back, and if you can't, then you can end up in prison.

dan-robertson 5y ago

If someone sends you money by mistake it is not yours and you should return it (the easiest way to do that is to call your bank and ask them to revert the transaction[1]). If you do not return it then it is theft and you may be prosecuted. If a company accidentally sends another company money then things are usually resolved quickly and professionally with a phone call. If a company accidentally sends lots of people small amounts of money then the loss is balanced against the cost of getting it back by contacting all the people and likely some will be returned and some will be stolen. If the accidental transfer is really accidental pay then undoing will be complicated/impossible so if the amount is small enough maybe just pay less the following month (if it’s allowed by minimum wage laws?) and write off people who quit before the company is made whole, though this can be complicated if the error happens towards the end of the tax year or because of taxes that are assessed e.g. monthly instead of annually. [1] there’s a common scam that goes roughly like: 1. Someone sends you ‘too much’ money. 2. They ask you to return the money minus some goodwill payment. 3. They clawback their initial transfer but you can’t claw yours back. So that’s why trying to get the original transfer cancelled is better than trying to return or partially return funds manually.