5 ms·

Why though ? Specially since covid, I don't see why knowledge workers can't just follow their own schedule, subject to constraints such as "meeting at x" of cou

by yarky 5y ago

Why though ? Specially since covid, I don't see why knowledge workers can't just follow their own schedule, subject to constraints such as "meeting at x" of course. This is an attitude more than anything I'd say, the "follow the calendar" mentality doesn't have to apply to you unless you choose so.

ChildOfChaos 5y ago
A lot of employers still won't allow that even though it's possible. You have to be online on messaging services/contactable by email with quick response during normal hours, making it very hard to do much else in this time. Covid has meant more people working remotely, but hasn't changed working schedules that much from what i have seen here at least.
- erwincoumans 5y ago
  How can you get 'in the zone' with constant messaging/on-call. I'm glad not to be in such position.
  - yarky 5y ago
    I agree entirely. Constant interruptions while programming is a no no.
  - bradlys 5y ago
    You don’t. That’s kind of the point. We still live in a world full of companies that don’t allow software engineers to work in their best environment.
- grvdrm 5y ago
  What do you mean by "won't allow" What's "online" with a "quick response" - suppose you step away for 45 mins to work out? Is someone giving you a hard time because your response time to an email or a Slack message is not immediate? Does that question or inquiry need to be handled that quickly? Lots of things like this seem like a failure to set expectations. We're allowed to deliberately block our calendars, right? That might mean you close your email and do an hour of work solid, or work out, or run an errand. But it's possible, with some deliberate calendar planning, and frankly transparency with those expecting something from you. "I won't be available for the next 45 mins because [X]" is a pretty easy statement to deliver
nine_k 5y ago
Having a schedule that works for you is still important. When detached from the rhythm of the processes where you work together with others, it's easy to start slacking, or to start overworking, unless you have another source of rhythm. I've seen people critically dependent on the lunch break to have their lunch; without the external signal, they complained, they tend to forget about it, to the detriment of their health and mood.
afarrell 5y ago
Because if you say at standup "I'm going to work on X" and then you don't work on X, you lose the trust of the people you said that to.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  Figure out what you're going to do, tell people what you're going to do, and then do it.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
it shouldn't be a big deal for someone to step outside to hike for an hour or two, or to hit the gym mid day, or to pick their kids up from school. In my experience, the tech industry has been very accommodating of these flex schedules. Unless you're responsible for on-call, nearly everything can wait for an hour or two. People are often in meetings for that long anyway, so it's not much different if they take a hike or hit the gym or something. Taking longer (unplanned) amounts of time away from the keyboard is a different issue, though. If your work is truly isolated from the team and it's getting done on time, then it shouldn't matter when you're doing it. In fact, your employer wouldn't even know if you were at your desk or not as long as the work shows up. In practice, though, most people's work isn't actually fully isolated and asynchronous. If other people need to work on something with you or ask questions, it's a huge pain to play ping-pong with messages back and forth every several hours or even every day to solve things that could have been accomplished in 5 minutes of synchronous chat. This is why most remote companies will try to avoid creating teams that span too many timezones. Collaboration and teamwork plummet when real-time communication isn't a thing and nobody can ever predict when others will be available without scheduling meetings long in advance. I know it's not popular on HN, but in my experience few engineering jobs are truly asynchronous and isolated like this. Flexing schedules here and there is honestly enough to do most things that people want and need to do on a regular basis anyway. It's the people who are disappearing for entire days (e.g. taking vacation days without actually declaring a vacation day) who cause the problems.
88913527 5y ago
I have to meet with colleagues 10 and 16 hours ahead, which translates to early AM and late PM meetings. If I want to work an honest 8 hours, I'd have to take a mid-day siesta. And my leadership says I have to lead these teams, since improper requirements gathering and language barriers can reduce productivity. I don't have much of a choice.
- layer8 5y ago
  Sounds like you should go find a new job ASAP.
anotheryou 5y ago
I'm just toast after 8 hours of work. And if i shift something to another day it's just way too much. I can shift to free days which can even feel relaxing. But that means gifting my employer the best hours of my free days too.

by yarky 5y ago

ChildOfChaos 5y ago

A lot of employers still won't allow that even though it's possible. You have to be online on messaging services/contactable by email with quick response during normal hours, making it very hard to do much else in this time. Covid has meant more people working remotely, but hasn't changed working schedules that much from what i have seen here at least.

erwincoumans 5y ago
How can you get 'in the zone' with constant messaging/on-call. I'm glad not to be in such position.
- yarky 5y ago
  I agree entirely. Constant interruptions while programming is a no no.
- bradlys 5y ago
  You don’t. That’s kind of the point. We still live in a world full of companies that don’t allow software engineers to work in their best environment.
grvdrm 5y ago
What do you mean by "won't allow" What's "online" with a "quick response" - suppose you step away for 45 mins to work out? Is someone giving you a hard time because your response time to an email or a Slack message is not immediate? Does that question or inquiry need to be handled that quickly? Lots of things like this seem like a failure to set expectations. We're allowed to deliberately block our calendars, right? That might mean you close your email and do an hour of work solid, or work out, or run an errand. But it's possible, with some deliberate calendar planning, and frankly transparency with those expecting something from you. "I won't be available for the next 45 mins because [X]" is a pretty easy statement to deliver

nine_k 5y ago

Having a schedule that works for you is still important. When detached from the rhythm of the processes where you work together with others, it's easy to start slacking, or to start overworking, unless you have another source of rhythm. I've seen people critically dependent on the lunch break to have their lunch; without the external signal, they complained, they tend to forget about it, to the detriment of their health and mood.

afarrell 5y ago

Because if you say at standup "I'm going to work on X" and then you don't work on X, you lose the trust of the people you said that to.

Godel_unicode 5y ago
Figure out what you're going to do, tell people what you're going to do, and then do it.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

it shouldn't be a big deal for someone to step outside to hike for an hour or two, or to hit the gym mid day, or to pick their kids up from school. In my experience, the tech industry has been very accommodating of these flex schedules. Unless you're responsible for on-call, nearly everything can wait for an hour or two. People are often in meetings for that long anyway, so it's not much different if they take a hike or hit the gym or something. Taking longer (unplanned) amounts of time away from the keyboard is a different issue, though. If your work is truly isolated from the team and it's getting done on time, then it shouldn't matter when you're doing it. In fact, your employer wouldn't even know if you were at your desk or not as long as the work shows up. In practice, though, most people's work isn't actually fully isolated and asynchronous. If other people need to work on something with you or ask questions, it's a huge pain to play ping-pong with messages back and forth every several hours or even every day to solve things that could have been accomplished in 5 minutes of synchronous chat. This is why most remote companies will try to avoid creating teams that span too many timezones. Collaboration and teamwork plummet when real-time communication isn't a thing and nobody can ever predict when others will be available without scheduling meetings long in advance. I know it's not popular on HN, but in my experience few engineering jobs are truly asynchronous and isolated like this. Flexing schedules here and there is honestly enough to do most things that people want and need to do on a regular basis anyway. It's the people who are disappearing for entire days (e.g. taking vacation days without actually declaring a vacation day) who cause the problems.

88913527 5y ago

I have to meet with colleagues 10 and 16 hours ahead, which translates to early AM and late PM meetings. If I want to work an honest 8 hours, I'd have to take a mid-day siesta. And my leadership says I have to lead these teams, since improper requirements gathering and language barriers can reduce productivity. I don't have much of a choice.

layer8 5y ago
Sounds like you should go find a new job ASAP.

anotheryou 5y ago

I'm just toast after 8 hours of work. And if i shift something to another day it's just way too much. I can shift to free days which can even feel relaxing. But that means gifting my employer the best hours of my free days too.