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Orwell wrote an essay about Kipling[1] that might be worth reading if you want to know about more about him. Orwell's take: "Kipling is a jingo imperialist, he

Orwell wrote an essay about Kipling[1] that might be worth reading if you want to know about more about him. Orwell's take: "Kipling is a jingo imperialist, he is morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting. It is better to start by admitting that, and then to try to find out why it is that he survives while the refined people who have sniggered at him seem to wear so badly." [1] https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/rudyard-kipling/ https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...

nscalf 5y ago
This is a great take. I've taken this poem with me ever since my high school valedictorian introduced me to it in his speech. The popular response was "Kipling was a racist." Okay. Why do I love his work so much despite that? Looking at why work persists despite the negatives is a far better practice than looking for negatives to belittle work.
- scarier 5y ago
  Agreed. I'm well aware that he was a racist, jingoist prick, but "If-" is one of my favorite poems of all time. On the flip side, I have a hard time reading poems like "The White Man's Burden" and "Gunga Din" as anything but fairly clever satire. Maybe that's a measure of progress?
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adolph 5y ago
Thank you for that wonderful read.
CamperBob2 5y ago
That's a powerful essay. Certain parts of it have a very modern ring to them: But because (Kipling) identifies himself with the official class, he does possess one thing which ‘enlightened’ people seldom or never possess, and that is a sense of responsibility. The middle-class Left hate him for this quite as much as for his cruelty and vulgarity. All left-wing parties in the highly industrialized countries are at bottom a sham, because they make it their business to fight against something which they do not really wish to destroy. They have internationalist aims, and at the same time they struggle to keep up a standard of life with which those aims are incompatible. We all live by robbing Asiatic coolies, and those of us who are ‘enlightened’ all maintain that those coolies ought to be set free; but our standard of living, and hence our ‘enlightenment’, demands that the robbery shall continue. ... Although he had no direct connexion with any political party, Kipling was a Conservative, a thing that does not exist nowadays. Those who now call themselves Conservatives are either Liberals, Fascists or the accomplices of Fascists. He identified himself with the ruling power and not with the opposition. In a gifted writer this seems to us strange and even disgusting, but it did have the advantage of giving Kipling a certain grip on reality.
shadowgovt 5y ago
This essay was published in 1941. I feel like this entire take might need a big "And then what happened?" suffix on it regarding the consequences of jingoism, and nationalism in general.
- deleted 5y ago
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- KSteffensen 5y ago
  I think by 1941 the consequences of jingoism and nationalism were quite clear.
mayregretit 5y ago
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soufron 5y ago
It's worth noting that TS Eliot - who Orwell is answering to at the beginning of this essay, is himself often labelled a fascist or an antisemit. Great text by Orwell. Especially with the idea that Kipling’s outlook is pre-fascist, and that we should understand, read and criticize him only in that way. Of course, it would also work for TS Eliot.
avacadothegreen 5y ago
I clicked on this discussion against my better judgement, fearing an outpouring of trivial personal nostalgia and the typical HN one-upmanship in poem suggestion, but found myself spending the last 30 minutes enjoying Orwell's essay. Thank you for the substantive and informative contribution!

nscalf 5y ago

This is a great take. I've taken this poem with me ever since my high school valedictorian introduced me to it in his speech. The popular response was "Kipling was a racist." Okay. Why do I love his work so much despite that? Looking at why work persists despite the negatives is a far better practice than looking for negatives to belittle work.

scarier 5y ago
Agreed. I'm well aware that he was a racist, jingoist prick, but "If-" is one of my favorite poems of all time. On the flip side, I have a hard time reading poems like "The White Man's Burden" and "Gunga Din" as anything but fairly clever satire. Maybe that's a measure of progress?

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adolph 5y ago

Thank you for that wonderful read.

CamperBob2 5y ago

That's a powerful essay. Certain parts of it have a very modern ring to them: But because (Kipling) identifies himself with the official class, he does possess one thing which ‘enlightened’ people seldom or never possess, and that is a sense of responsibility. The middle-class Left hate him for this quite as much as for his cruelty and vulgarity. All left-wing parties in the highly industrialized countries are at bottom a sham, because they make it their business to fight against something which they do not really wish to destroy. They have internationalist aims, and at the same time they struggle to keep up a standard of life with which those aims are incompatible. We all live by robbing Asiatic coolies, and those of us who are ‘enlightened’ all maintain that those coolies ought to be set free; but our standard of living, and hence our ‘enlightenment’, demands that the robbery shall continue. ... Although he had no direct connexion with any political party, Kipling was a Conservative, a thing that does not exist nowadays. Those who now call themselves Conservatives are either Liberals, Fascists or the accomplices of Fascists. He identified himself with the ruling power and not with the opposition. In a gifted writer this seems to us strange and even disgusting, but it did have the advantage of giving Kipling a certain grip on reality.

shadowgovt 5y ago

This essay was published in 1941. I feel like this entire take might need a big "And then what happened?" suffix on it regarding the consequences of jingoism, and nationalism in general.

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KSteffensen 5y ago
I think by 1941 the consequences of jingoism and nationalism were quite clear.

mayregretit 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

soufron 5y ago

It's worth noting that TS Eliot - who Orwell is answering to at the beginning of this essay, is himself often labelled a fascist or an antisemit. Great text by Orwell. Especially with the idea that Kipling’s outlook is pre-fascist, and that we should understand, read and criticize him only in that way. Of course, it would also work for TS Eliot.

avacadothegreen 5y ago

I clicked on this discussion against my better judgement, fearing an outpouring of trivial personal nostalgia and the typical HN one-upmanship in poem suggestion, but found myself spending the last 30 minutes enjoying Orwell's essay. Thank you for the substantive and informative contribution!