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What prevents someone in India who happens to have an unfortunate caste association to switch caste? Assuming family names are easy to change, what else is it t

What prevents someone in India who happens to have an unfortunate caste association to switch caste? Assuming family names are easy to change, what else is it that ties you to the caste? Or are family names what underpins the system so the whole system relies on that you can’t simply file some paperwork and switch to some middle-caste name if you were born unlucky?

chillage 5y ago
Vast social networks, family, friends of friends. Your identity is tied to who you are and very many people who you know in your town either knows your family or knows someone who knows your family. Indians have very extensive social ties
- alkonaut 5y ago
  But it’s also a huge country with lots of people. If I move to a different city (e.g for school) and know no one, then apply for a job. What is the thought process and actions of a hiring manager who is discriminating on caste? Will they try to figure out who my relatives are? How? Would I be asked about relatives in an interview? What happens if I just shrug and say I’m from city X and I went to school in city Y and here I am? I understand that those who have lots of social captital have it tied to a network and a place such as a town. They would want to stay in that network to use their capital. For example move back home after studying. But for those with little or even “negative” social capital (ie you are better off with no background than your actual background), why aren’t they more mobile or even just claiming they are?
  - sumedh 5y ago
    > Will they try to figure out who my relatives are? How? Would I be asked about relatives in an interview? For tech jobs no one is going to ask these questions.
  - izacus 5y ago
    You're thinking in the wrong direction - if you'd live in such society you'd understand that you're not trying to prove a negative ("you're from the wrong case"), but you need to prove a positive ("you're from the right circles, someone the boss knows knows you"). It's like getting in to american closed society - they'll check your social ties and if noone can vouch for you or know you, you're immediately suspect. And those checks aren't made in your face - it's usually in the background and async.
yawaramin 5y ago
Family. In South Asia (and I guess anywhere else), your status is not just about who you are, but who you're related to. If you present no family background, then people will form their own conclusions.
KrishnaShripad 5y ago
It has nothing to do with names. This is the biggest misunderstanding that the West has with Caste System. It has to do with Gotra (or lineage). Gotra is a set of lineage identities that families maintain over generations starting from the Ancient Rishis who started the lineage. The main ones are: Kashyapa, Atri, Vasistha, Vishvamitra, Gautama, Jamadagni and Bharadvaja. There are plenty more (who were descendents of these Rishis who also started their own lineage). It is probably the only undocumented genetic record ever existing in modern times that traces back to probably the beginning of Mankind so to speak. You do not marry within Gotras as it would amount to incestual relationship. Men from Upper Castes were allowed to marry any Woman from Lower Caste but vice-versa was disallowed [1]. However, even the Upper/Lower Caste marriage was frowned upon because of lack of information of Gotras. Another thing you should note is that Caste System only came into prevalence in the past 2500 years. Before that we had Varna System. In the Varna System, you could "choose" your Profession. If you wanted to be a teacher who was well versed in Vedic scriptures, you would learn under a Guru and become a Brahmin. If you wanted to be a fighter, you would train martial arts and weaponry under a Guru and become a Kshatriya. If you wanted to get into trade you would be a Vaishya. If you wanted to serve the society you would be a Shudra. One more important point to note: In Sanatan Dharma, all are born as Shudras. It is only after the age of 8, when they go through a thread ceremony called Upanayana do they get initiated into Brahmacharya (and then they go on to become Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya etc based on their interests). This is called Dvija (or twice born: first birth was as Shudra and your second birth is into the Varna that you choose). This system was corrupted, especially in the medieval times and turned into "Caste System". So when you ask if surname can be changed nope it doesn't fix anything. If you want to marry someone you'll have to provide details of your Gotra along with your lineage of your immediate 2 ancestors (typically father and grand-father). And most of these communities are closely knit. So they'll know immediately if you are faking it. The only remedy is to go back to Varna System and completely abolish the Caste System as it originally was. Where these were considered as Professions alone and not as something that you acquire just by being born into that family. Just like me being born into an Engineers family doesn't automatically make me an Engineer, same way, being born into a Brahmin family won't make me a Brahmin. It will just make me "Brahma-Bandhu". This was the technical term used. [1] The reason vice-versa was disallowed is because women inherit the man's Gotra after marriage. But the reverse does not happen. Why? Because, the man is the seed giver while the woman is the nourisher. To better explain it: If you consider Mother Earth as woman, and Apple Seed representing the man, if you plant the seed in Earth, you'll have an Apple Tree. Not a Mango Tree. Not a Peach Tree. Earth doesn't get to decide what becomes of the Tree. It only nourishes it. It is the seed which decides the nature/characteristics of the Tree. So Gotra is of the man not the woman. Another reason why we have had a Patriarchal Society for a long time (though this has changed considerably). Because it becomes the responsibility of the man to protect his lineage/clan from external threats. Keep in mind that these were all done for an era that does not exist today. We cannot fathom the issues/threats they faced that required them to have such systems. Many of it can be taken as is in modern times, while many need to be changed/fixed/removed/abolished. But one good thing is that the system has a self-healing capacity. Slowly but surely things are changing.
akomtu 5y ago
From what I've heard, the castes represent bloodlines, so if you're of type A, you'd be in caste 1, if you're a mix of A and B, then it's caste 2 and so on. The goal is to preserve the bloodlines by forbidding intercaste marriages. You also need to understand, that a cornerstone of many indian religions is reincarnation, so the caste system applies to human bodies only, while the reincarnating entities, call them souls if you want, may jump from caste to caste or even a different nation. Whether castes are still necessary is a big question.
- fault1 5y ago
  Yeah, I think this is the gist of it in traditional* practice. * for what it's worth, Hinduism has a lot of heterodox interpretations, and at least historically there is large number of variations of it. Modernity (incl' British administration) helped homogenize it partially. I think very loosely, it can be categorized as putting a label on the various collections of folk belief structures popular with the people of south asia formed from the admixture of vedic and pre-vedic practices syncretized together.
kamaal 5y ago
>>What prevents someone in India who happens to have an unfortunate caste association to switch caste? It's possible, it's called changing one's religion, its a politically charged topic in India currently. Most Muslims and Christians, in India, forever have been caste refugees. And continue to be so. Since this involves changing ones identity and culture in a very fundamental way, it has deep ramifications on demographics, politics and overall things in general.
- known 5y ago

chillage 5y ago

Vast social networks, family, friends of friends. Your identity is tied to who you are and very many people who you know in your town either knows your family or knows someone who knows your family. Indians have very extensive social ties

alkonaut 5y ago
But it’s also a huge country with lots of people. If I move to a different city (e.g for school) and know no one, then apply for a job. What is the thought process and actions of a hiring manager who is discriminating on caste? Will they try to figure out who my relatives are? How? Would I be asked about relatives in an interview? What happens if I just shrug and say I’m from city X and I went to school in city Y and here I am? I understand that those who have lots of social captital have it tied to a network and a place such as a town. They would want to stay in that network to use their capital. For example move back home after studying. But for those with little or even “negative” social capital (ie you are better off with no background than your actual background), why aren’t they more mobile or even just claiming they are?
- sumedh 5y ago
  > Will they try to figure out who my relatives are? How? Would I be asked about relatives in an interview? For tech jobs no one is going to ask these questions.
- izacus 5y ago
  You're thinking in the wrong direction - if you'd live in such society you'd understand that you're not trying to prove a negative ("you're from the wrong case"), but you need to prove a positive ("you're from the right circles, someone the boss knows knows you"). It's like getting in to american closed society - they'll check your social ties and if noone can vouch for you or know you, you're immediately suspect. And those checks aren't made in your face - it's usually in the background and async.

yawaramin 5y ago

Family. In South Asia (and I guess anywhere else), your status is not just about who you are, but who you're related to. If you present no family background, then people will form their own conclusions.

KrishnaShripad 5y ago

It has nothing to do with names. This is the biggest misunderstanding that the West has with Caste System. It has to do with Gotra (or lineage). Gotra is a set of lineage identities that families maintain over generations starting from the Ancient Rishis who started the lineage. The main ones are: Kashyapa, Atri, Vasistha, Vishvamitra, Gautama, Jamadagni and Bharadvaja. There are plenty more (who were descendents of these Rishis who also started their own lineage). It is probably the only undocumented genetic record ever existing in modern times that traces back to probably the beginning of Mankind so to speak. You do not marry within Gotras as it would amount to incestual relationship. Men from Upper Castes were allowed to marry any Woman from Lower Caste but vice-versa was disallowed [1]. However, even the Upper/Lower Caste marriage was frowned upon because of lack of information of Gotras. Another thing you should note is that Caste System only came into prevalence in the past 2500 years. Before that we had Varna System. In the Varna System, you could "choose" your Profession. If you wanted to be a teacher who was well versed in Vedic scriptures, you would learn under a Guru and become a Brahmin. If you wanted to be a fighter, you would train martial arts and weaponry under a Guru and become a Kshatriya. If you wanted to get into trade you would be a Vaishya. If you wanted to serve the society you would be a Shudra. One more important point to note: In Sanatan Dharma, all are born as Shudras. It is only after the age of 8, when they go through a thread ceremony called Upanayana do they get initiated into Brahmacharya (and then they go on to become Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya etc based on their interests). This is called Dvija (or twice born: first birth was as Shudra and your second birth is into the Varna that you choose). This system was corrupted, especially in the medieval times and turned into "Caste System". So when you ask if surname can be changed nope it doesn't fix anything. If you want to marry someone you'll have to provide details of your Gotra along with your lineage of your immediate 2 ancestors (typically father and grand-father). And most of these communities are closely knit. So they'll know immediately if you are faking it. The only remedy is to go back to Varna System and completely abolish the Caste System as it originally was. Where these were considered as Professions alone and not as something that you acquire just by being born into that family. Just like me being born into an Engineers family doesn't automatically make me an Engineer, same way, being born into a Brahmin family won't make me a Brahmin. It will just make me "Brahma-Bandhu". This was the technical term used. [1] The reason vice-versa was disallowed is because women inherit the man's Gotra after marriage. But the reverse does not happen. Why? Because, the man is the seed giver while the woman is the nourisher. To better explain it: If you consider Mother Earth as woman, and Apple Seed representing the man, if you plant the seed in Earth, you'll have an Apple Tree. Not a Mango Tree. Not a Peach Tree. Earth doesn't get to decide what becomes of the Tree. It only nourishes it. It is the seed which decides the nature/characteristics of the Tree. So Gotra is of the man not the woman. Another reason why we have had a Patriarchal Society for a long time (though this has changed considerably). Because it becomes the responsibility of the man to protect his lineage/clan from external threats. Keep in mind that these were all done for an era that does not exist today. We cannot fathom the issues/threats they faced that required them to have such systems. Many of it can be taken as is in modern times, while many need to be changed/fixed/removed/abolished. But one good thing is that the system has a self-healing capacity. Slowly but surely things are changing.

akomtu 5y ago

From what I've heard, the castes represent bloodlines, so if you're of type A, you'd be in caste 1, if you're a mix of A and B, then it's caste 2 and so on. The goal is to preserve the bloodlines by forbidding intercaste marriages. You also need to understand, that a cornerstone of many indian religions is reincarnation, so the caste system applies to human bodies only, while the reincarnating entities, call them souls if you want, may jump from caste to caste or even a different nation. Whether castes are still necessary is a big question.

fault1 5y ago
Yeah, I think this is the gist of it in traditional* practice. * for what it's worth, Hinduism has a lot of heterodox interpretations, and at least historically there is large number of variations of it. Modernity (incl' British administration) helped homogenize it partially. I think very loosely, it can be categorized as putting a label on the various collections of folk belief structures popular with the people of south asia formed from the admixture of vedic and pre-vedic practices syncretized together.

kamaal 5y ago

>>What prevents someone in India who happens to have an unfortunate caste association to switch caste? It's possible, it's called changing one's religion, its a politically charged topic in India currently. Most Muslims and Christians, in India, forever have been caste refugees. And continue to be so. Since this involves changing ones identity and culture in a very fundamental way, it has deep ramifications on demographics, politics and overall things in general.

known 5y ago