5 ms·

We have a lot of those same issues in the US and it is a well known driving force of "vaccine hesitancy". The problem is usually framed as "earned distrust of

We have a lot of those same issues in the US and it is a well known driving force of "vaccine hesitancy". The problem is usually framed as "earned distrust of institutions", which is certainly a big part of the story. But "unhealed trauma from medical horrors" probably requires a different remedy than rebuilding trust in institutions, and it should at least be part of the story. If I'm ever incapacitated, I know the doctors can't say "let's not save this one. we could keep them alive, but it's better for everyone to not do that". That is insane to me, and it makes me deeply distrustful of the whole institution. To give non-Americans a sense of how things work here: if a doctor suggests that you have surgery and it's not an immediate need, you should seek the opinion of several other professionals to see if you really need the surgery or if the doctor just likes doing that one. Also quackery like homeopathy and chiropractory is allowed in the open. Smart Americans learn early which parts of the medical system can be trusted and how to get maximum benefit out of them. But I can see how someone might not want to go through all that effort, tune the whole thing out, and tune out vaccinations along with it. I see this as a trauma response to knowing how abusive the system can be unless it's handled very delicately.

pc86 5y ago
> I know the doctors can't say "let's not save this one. we could keep them alive, but it's better for everyone to not do that". They absolutely can, if they know that that's what you would want and someone from your family isn't actively trying to stop them. That's why it's important for people to have DNRs and/or make their wishes known to multiple family members.
rtsil 5y ago
> if a doctor suggests that you have surgery and it's not an immediate need, you should seek the opinion of several other professionals to see if you really need the surgery or if the doctor just likes doing that one. In France too, that is absolutely what I recommend. Never undergo a non-emergency potentially life-altering medical procedure without getting the opinion of at least another specialist. And also that if you go see a surgeon, their recommendation would almost always be a surgery, even if there are others, less invasive path of treatments.
- pilsetnieks 5y ago
  As the beloved doctor Gregory House put it, "tell a surgeon it’s okay to cut a leg off and he’s going to spend the night polishing his good hacksaw" (instead of looking for other solutions).
mechanical_bear 5y ago
>… quackery like … chiropractory(sic) is allowed… There are indeed some Chiropractors who are quacks, and there are elements of the practice that are not understood well or even contravene our traditional understanding of science and medicine - however, if not for Chiropractors I’d have suffered needlessly. Visiting a Chiropractor and getting adjusted after Airborne operations has brought me back to full operational form. I woke up unable to turn my head on multiple occasions, getting adjusted was the only relief I got after my PCP’s only help was painkillers or the referral to the “quack” (as you put it).
- TaylorAlexander 5y ago
  Indeed, I have chronic back pain due to years of computer work with bad posture. I used to go to a chiropractor and I can understand the purpose. There are times where my spine seems to get really out of whack. Maybe I will sleep on my side and my neck will be really tight on one side. What I now do is yoga to stretch and loosen the muscles around the affected area, and then through regular circular motion of the affected joints I will usually, after sometimes a couple of days of stretching, get the joint to "pop" (again, just from slow movement that eventually loosens things up) and I will feel relief. It may be better to do the slow yoga approach, but there are times where I am in a lot of pain for days in a row. Having a trained professional to look at my body, find the tense areas and apply heat to loosen things up before giving it a good push seems like a valid mode of treatment for what can be debilitating pain. Similar results could probably be achieved from massage, but a masseuse will never give the joint a push to try to reset things, and in my non medical opinion it seems like that could be a useful treatment at times.
- cameronh90 5y ago
  It might sometimes work, but chiropractic is still quackery. Let's say I notice that kicking someone in the kneecap seems to cure the cold. If I go around offering to kick people in the kneecaps and don't claim to know why - or even if - it helps that's fine. But once I start saying it optimises your body's energy flow which enlists white blood cells to fight disease, that's quackery. The whole basis of chiropractic is pseudoscience at best or actively rejecting the scientific method at worst. Part of what they do is likely effective for some. Studies suggest it's about as effective as massage, physical therapy or exercise. Now, there are absolutely some "good" people in the industry that know and accept that chiropractic orthodoxy is pseudoscience, but nevertheless feel that spinal manipulation helps with some conditions and don't make grand claims or claim to be able to treat non-MSK conditions. It is probably unfair to describe those individuals as quacks. But textbook definition chiropractic as an industry is absolute nonsense.

pc86 5y ago

> I know the doctors can't say "let's not save this one. we could keep them alive, but it's better for everyone to not do that". They absolutely can, if they know that that's what you would want and someone from your family isn't actively trying to stop them. That's why it's important for people to have DNRs and/or make their wishes known to multiple family members.

rtsil 5y ago

> if a doctor suggests that you have surgery and it's not an immediate need, you should seek the opinion of several other professionals to see if you really need the surgery or if the doctor just likes doing that one. In France too, that is absolutely what I recommend. Never undergo a non-emergency potentially life-altering medical procedure without getting the opinion of at least another specialist. And also that if you go see a surgeon, their recommendation would almost always be a surgery, even if there are others, less invasive path of treatments.

pilsetnieks 5y ago
As the beloved doctor Gregory House put it, "tell a surgeon it’s okay to cut a leg off and he’s going to spend the night polishing his good hacksaw" (instead of looking for other solutions).

mechanical_bear 5y ago

>… quackery like … chiropractory(sic) is allowed… There are indeed some Chiropractors who are quacks, and there are elements of the practice that are not understood well or even contravene our traditional understanding of science and medicine - however, if not for Chiropractors I’d have suffered needlessly. Visiting a Chiropractor and getting adjusted after Airborne operations has brought me back to full operational form. I woke up unable to turn my head on multiple occasions, getting adjusted was the only relief I got after my PCP’s only help was painkillers or the referral to the “quack” (as you put it).

TaylorAlexander 5y ago
Indeed, I have chronic back pain due to years of computer work with bad posture. I used to go to a chiropractor and I can understand the purpose. There are times where my spine seems to get really out of whack. Maybe I will sleep on my side and my neck will be really tight on one side. What I now do is yoga to stretch and loosen the muscles around the affected area, and then through regular circular motion of the affected joints I will usually, after sometimes a couple of days of stretching, get the joint to "pop" (again, just from slow movement that eventually loosens things up) and I will feel relief. It may be better to do the slow yoga approach, but there are times where I am in a lot of pain for days in a row. Having a trained professional to look at my body, find the tense areas and apply heat to loosen things up before giving it a good push seems like a valid mode of treatment for what can be debilitating pain. Similar results could probably be achieved from massage, but a masseuse will never give the joint a push to try to reset things, and in my non medical opinion it seems like that could be a useful treatment at times.
cameronh90 5y ago
It might sometimes work, but chiropractic is still quackery. Let's say I notice that kicking someone in the kneecap seems to cure the cold. If I go around offering to kick people in the kneecaps and don't claim to know why - or even if - it helps that's fine. But once I start saying it optimises your body's energy flow which enlists white blood cells to fight disease, that's quackery. The whole basis of chiropractic is pseudoscience at best or actively rejecting the scientific method at worst. Part of what they do is likely effective for some. Studies suggest it's about as effective as massage, physical therapy or exercise. Now, there are absolutely some "good" people in the industry that know and accept that chiropractic orthodoxy is pseudoscience, but nevertheless feel that spinal manipulation helps with some conditions and don't make grand claims or claim to be able to treat non-MSK conditions. It is probably unfair to describe those individuals as quacks. But textbook definition chiropractic as an industry is absolute nonsense.