3 ms·

Why does play2earn require (or is made much easier by) crypto? I'm missing a step in the logic

yucky 5y ago
I'm not an expert on it, but I think this refers to the various "things" that can be bought/owned on various metaverse type environments. People from first world countries are able to buy these things since it's easier than "earning" them. People from developing countries can then do the earning part for them, and sell what they've got on various NFT marketplaces, for desperately needed money. Why crypto is needed is because that is the tech that makes it possible for Player A to actually own Thing X, when Player A sends money to Player B who actually spent 8 hours playing or doing in order to earn Thing X. There are a few of these examples starting to gain steam like Axie Infinity[1] for instance. Although I suspect FB & Roblox are going to really go all in on this soon, if they haven't already. And their user bases are enormous. [1] https://axieinfinity.com/ https://axieinfinity.com/ (click on their marketplace link to see for yourself, the prices are crazy)
- icambron 5y ago
  You can build a marketplace without crypto, though. The question is why crypto is an important enabling feature. E.g. would Axie Infinity be as successful if it simply let you buy/sell assets directly? (Putting aside any of the surrounding discussion of pyramid schemes; I'm not really interested in Axie in particular, more how the concept is supposed to work)
  - gilleain 5y ago
    I am also unsure as to how crypto benefits ownership of assets (eg "Axies"). I looked into NFTs recently, and (to my very simplified understanding) there seems to be: Asset <-> Token <-> Blockchain where the <-> are links of some kind. I understand that the T-B link on the right is secure and uses all the fancy crypto stuff (smart contracts, whatever) . However, the A-T link is less clear to me. Concretely, if you 'own' a Pokeman/Axie then that is the T-B link, but what links the Axie to the token? A URL/URI? So where is that stored - in a database somewhere? It all seems very suspect, but maybe I'm missing something.
  - yucky 5y ago
    I think the bridge into the financial system is the value. In theory, any game could create a way for you to "own" a rare item, and maybe even trade it within the game. But then how do you transfer ownership with a guaranteed exchange that can be cashed for fiat? The exchange would require us to trust each other, and I would paypal you the money? I think the NFT serves not only as the proof of ownership, but the chain of ownership and the escrow as well.
- Animats 5y ago
  Oh, Axie Infinity. They're a Ponzi scheme in the crash phase. Their players grind to earn Smooth Love Potion tokens. Here's the chart for SLP.[1] Down over 90% and still crashing. There's also an Axie Infinity token.[2] It's only down 34%. There's some kind of 65-month (!) vesting period with that token. Don't hold Axie Infinity up as a success. No, Roblox is not getting into NFTs. They're planning on having no-copy transferable items within their own ecosystem. Second Life has had those for years. They're a minor portion of the object market, especially since SL got rid of gachas ("loot boxes") for regulatory reasons. The main use of NFTs that makes any kind of sense is monetizing popularity. It's a new form of celebrity merch. This is great if you're a celebrity, but not otherwise. [1] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/smooth-love-potion/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/smooth-love-potion/ [2] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/axie-infinity/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/axie-infinity/
  - yucky 5y ago
    >Don't hold Axie Infinity up as a success. It's pumped millions of dollars into poor areas in developing countries. I think they would consider that a success. Remember, they're not investing in these NFT's, they're utilizing them to extract wealth from collectors/investors in the west. So for them, yes it's been a resounding success. >No, Roblox is not getting into NFTs. Not only will they get into NFT's, when they do they will have the largest marketplace. I don't own RBLX, or any NFT's, but the writing is on the wall. The Metaverse(s) are just getting going.
    - Animats 5y ago
      It's pumped millions of dollars into poor areas in developing countries. That money comes from the poor suckers who are grinding away, buying Axies and hoping to make money. This is zero-sum, remember.
      - yucky 5y ago
        >That money comes from the poor suckers who are grinding away, buying Axies and hoping to make money. This is zero-sum, remember. If you're poor, you're not buying those shitty tokens. The poor are the ones selling the goods for the tokens, which are purchased by people with enough disposable income to spend on digital "things". If you have $100 to spend on an outfit for your avatar in some game, I have no problem if some family in the Philippines gets o eat for a month as a result.
pengwing 5y ago
1) It enables users to own their assets regardless of the state of a centralized server. 2) Standardized format to trade on any third-party marketplace. A player could sell to an investor who has no intention of playing.
- icambron 5y ago
  Thanks. 2 mostly makes sense to me--ownership can be managed independently of the game, and without a bespoke integration with that particular game. I do wonder a little how important being able to turn game assets into general-purpose instruments is (meaning, to the success of the game), but I can see how it expands the market and in particular how it makes it harder for the game company to manipulate that market, which makes the assets more reliable. I'm not sure I understand 1 though. Don't the assets only have value in the context of the game's mechanics, which _are_ centralized? Like if the game decides your bag of holding no longer holds anything, or even to simply ignore its existence, does it matter that you have a token asserting your ownership of the bag? In theory, the token could have value as a token outside the context of the game, like a meme stock or, uh, the current price of Tesla, but that's true of anything tradable.
  - pengwing 5y ago
    Regarding 1: Sure the game itself is centralized, for example Axie Infinity might even ban players who "cheat" according to their definition of cheating. So if you are a bad apple or get banned without justification, then block chain won't help you. If however (some years down the line) the original game creator abandons the game, any group of people could jump in and revive the game (by re-creating or updating it or doing something completely novel) based on the state that is still available on the block chain.
    - icambron 5y ago
      That's a nice property, but it seems like only a marginal benefit to Axie? Something like, players are more likely to invest money and energy into the game if there's some chance their assets' value will outlive Axie, thus slightly reducing the risks to their investment. Seems like that would be a small effect, or am I missing something? I guess what I'm trying to understand here is how crypto is a big game changer. Thanks for the discussion in any case.

I'm not an expert on it, but I think this refers to the various "things" that can be bought/owned on various metaverse type environments. People from first world countries are able to buy these things since it's easier than "earning" them. People from developing countries can then do the earning part for them, and sell what they've got on various NFT marketplaces, for desperately needed money. Why crypto is needed is because that is the tech that makes it possible for Player A to actually own Thing X, when Player A sends money to Player B who actually spent 8 hours playing or doing in order to earn Thing X. There are a few of these examples starting to gain steam like Axie Infinity[1] for instance. Although I suspect FB & Roblox are going to really go all in on this soon, if they haven't already. And their user bases are enormous. [1] https://axieinfinity.com/ https://axieinfinity.com/ (click on their marketplace link to see for yourself, the prices are crazy)

icambron 5y ago
You can build a marketplace without crypto, though. The question is why crypto is an important enabling feature. E.g. would Axie Infinity be as successful if it simply let you buy/sell assets directly? (Putting aside any of the surrounding discussion of pyramid schemes; I'm not really interested in Axie in particular, more how the concept is supposed to work)
- gilleain 5y ago
  I am also unsure as to how crypto benefits ownership of assets (eg "Axies"). I looked into NFTs recently, and (to my very simplified understanding) there seems to be: Asset <-> Token <-> Blockchain where the <-> are links of some kind. I understand that the T-B link on the right is secure and uses all the fancy crypto stuff (smart contracts, whatever) . However, the A-T link is less clear to me. Concretely, if you 'own' a Pokeman/Axie then that is the T-B link, but what links the Axie to the token? A URL/URI? So where is that stored - in a database somewhere? It all seems very suspect, but maybe I'm missing something.
- yucky 5y ago
  I think the bridge into the financial system is the value. In theory, any game could create a way for you to "own" a rare item, and maybe even trade it within the game. But then how do you transfer ownership with a guaranteed exchange that can be cashed for fiat? The exchange would require us to trust each other, and I would paypal you the money? I think the NFT serves not only as the proof of ownership, but the chain of ownership and the escrow as well.
Animats 5y ago
Oh, Axie Infinity. They're a Ponzi scheme in the crash phase. Their players grind to earn Smooth Love Potion tokens. Here's the chart for SLP.[1] Down over 90% and still crashing. There's also an Axie Infinity token.[2] It's only down 34%. There's some kind of 65-month (!) vesting period with that token. Don't hold Axie Infinity up as a success. No, Roblox is not getting into NFTs. They're planning on having no-copy transferable items within their own ecosystem. Second Life has had those for years. They're a minor portion of the object market, especially since SL got rid of gachas ("loot boxes") for regulatory reasons. The main use of NFTs that makes any kind of sense is monetizing popularity. It's a new form of celebrity merch. This is great if you're a celebrity, but not otherwise. [1] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/smooth-love-potion/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/smooth-love-potion/ [2] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/axie-infinity/ https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/axie-infinity/
- yucky 5y ago
  >Don't hold Axie Infinity up as a success. It's pumped millions of dollars into poor areas in developing countries. I think they would consider that a success. Remember, they're not investing in these NFT's, they're utilizing them to extract wealth from collectors/investors in the west. So for them, yes it's been a resounding success. >No, Roblox is not getting into NFTs. Not only will they get into NFT's, when they do they will have the largest marketplace. I don't own RBLX, or any NFT's, but the writing is on the wall. The Metaverse(s) are just getting going.
  - Animats 5y ago
    It's pumped millions of dollars into poor areas in developing countries. That money comes from the poor suckers who are grinding away, buying Axies and hoping to make money. This is zero-sum, remember.
    - yucky 5y ago
      >That money comes from the poor suckers who are grinding away, buying Axies and hoping to make money. This is zero-sum, remember. If you're poor, you're not buying those shitty tokens. The poor are the ones selling the goods for the tokens, which are purchased by people with enough disposable income to spend on digital "things". If you have $100 to spend on an outfit for your avatar in some game, I have no problem if some family in the Philippines gets o eat for a month as a result.

pengwing 5y ago

1) It enables users to own their assets regardless of the state of a centralized server. 2) Standardized format to trade on any third-party marketplace. A player could sell to an investor who has no intention of playing.

icambron 5y ago
Thanks. 2 mostly makes sense to me--ownership can be managed independently of the game, and without a bespoke integration with that particular game. I do wonder a little how important being able to turn game assets into general-purpose instruments is (meaning, to the success of the game), but I can see how it expands the market and in particular how it makes it harder for the game company to manipulate that market, which makes the assets more reliable. I'm not sure I understand 1 though. Don't the assets only have value in the context of the game's mechanics, which _are_ centralized? Like if the game decides your bag of holding no longer holds anything, or even to simply ignore its existence, does it matter that you have a token asserting your ownership of the bag? In theory, the token could have value as a token outside the context of the game, like a meme stock or, uh, the current price of Tesla, but that's true of anything tradable.
- pengwing 5y ago
  Regarding 1: Sure the game itself is centralized, for example Axie Infinity might even ban players who "cheat" according to their definition of cheating. So if you are a bad apple or get banned without justification, then block chain won't help you. If however (some years down the line) the original game creator abandons the game, any group of people could jump in and revive the game (by re-creating or updating it or doing something completely novel) based on the state that is still available on the block chain.
  - icambron 5y ago
    That's a nice property, but it seems like only a marginal benefit to Axie? Something like, players are more likely to invest money and energy into the game if there's some chance their assets' value will outlive Axie, thus slightly reducing the risks to their investment. Seems like that would be a small effect, or am I missing something? I guess what I'm trying to understand here is how crypto is a big game changer. Thanks for the discussion in any case.