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> Except in children the side effects are actually a higher rate from the vaccine than from infection itself. This is false. There was a pre-print study a whil

> Except in children the side effects are actually a higher rate from the vaccine than from infection itself. This is false. There was a pre-print study a while ago that tried to compare estimates vaccine side effects to COVID hospitalizations and hoped that readers wouldn’t notice they were comparing apples to oranges. The preprint was retracted but many people missed the details and ended up convinced that the vaccine is worse than infection because they didn’t read closely enough. The vaccine never would have been approved and stay available if it was worse than the infection it prevents. The only way someone could believe something that absurd is to believe that the whole thing is a massive conspiracy theory. It’s not.

aycqt 5y ago
bena 5y ago
The thing that boggles my mind is how many people are treating "children" as if they are anything but smaller, developing humans. What works for adults will work for children. What can happen to children can happen to adults. The major difference is that children are smaller and are developing. So we need to be wary of things that could hinder that development. That's really it. They aren't some completely separate species. It's not like Covid checks birthdays.
- gls2ro 5y ago
  What works for adults does not work for children. For example we use different dosages per kg in adults and children. Please note dosage per kg and not total dosage. Also the immune system works differently. So please do not spread this information. It is false in many ways. Children body (especially young ones) works differently than adult body.
  - jtc331 5y ago
    Yep. For example with the 1918 flu cytokine storms in younger populations and not in older populations is one proposed explanation for peak mortality being among the young not the elderly.
- yucky 5y ago
  >What works for adults will work for children. Then why do we have different medication for children?
  - bena 5y ago
    Do we though? We have lower strength versions of things because they're smaller. And we don't give them anything that would inhibit development. Those are the differences. Giving something in dosages designed for a 180 lb man to a 50 lb child is bound to be problematic.
- jtc331 5y ago
  No, that’s not what people are doing or saying. If the side effect rate/safety curve for the vaccines is not age specific then it’s entirely plausible there’s an age crossover point with the disease risk curve given COVID’s risk is wildly slanted towards older ages.
  - bena 5y ago
    All disease risk is wildly slanted towards older ages. Old people die. It's what we expect. And the vaccine side effect rate/safety curve you claim to be worried about for the very first time in your life is so astonishingly low, there's never going to be an "age crossover point".
    - jtc331 5y ago
      Re: all diseases that’s not true either. For example the 1918 flu caused significant damage precisely because it affected young people quite significantly.
      - bena 5y ago
        But it affected older people worse, right? You're trying to deny a basic fact, old people are more at risk, as a group, just in general.
        jtc331 5y ago
        > But it affected older people worse, right? No, incorrect again. Mortality for the 1918 flu peaked at age 28 and was lower in older age groups. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3734171/#!po=0.806452 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3734171/#!po=0.... I’m not denying a basic fact. I’m showing that your knowledge of the facts is not as complete as you seem to think.
        bena 5y ago
        Then it's truly an aberration and not nearly the slam dunk you think it is. Because it was so odd, they specifically looked into it.
jtc331 5y ago
Even the FDA advisory panel raised questions about side effect data with children. And if it’s a giant conspiracy theory, why are so many other countries (in Europe, Taiwan, etc.) explicitly disallowing the vaccines (in some cases specific ones) young age cohorts?
jtc331 5y ago
Is this the study you’re thinking of? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v... It doesn’t appear to be retracted, and found these results: “Results A total of 257 CAEs were identified. Rates per million following dose 2 among males were 162.2 (ages 12-15) and 94.0 (ages 16-17); among females, rates were 13.0 and 13.4 per million, respectively. For boys 12-15 without medical comorbidities receiving their second mRNA vaccination dose, the rate of CAE is 3.7 to 6.1 times higher than their 120-day COVID-19 hospitalization risk as of August 21, 2021 (7-day hospitalizations 1.5/100k population) and 2.6-4.3-fold higher at times of high weekly hospitalization risk (7-day hospitalizations 2.1/100k), such as during January 2021. For boys 16-17 without medical comorbidities, the rate of CAE is currently 2.1 to 3.5 times higher than their 120-day COVID-19 hospitalization risk, and 1.5 to 2.5 times higher at times of high weekly COVID-19 hospitalization.” Given the CDC reported 95% likelihood of hospitalization for vaccine-induced myocarditis those numbers (CAEs and hospitalizations) are in fact something we can compare.

aycqt 5y ago

bena 5y ago

The thing that boggles my mind is how many people are treating "children" as if they are anything but smaller, developing humans. What works for adults will work for children. What can happen to children can happen to adults. The major difference is that children are smaller and are developing. So we need to be wary of things that could hinder that development. That's really it. They aren't some completely separate species. It's not like Covid checks birthdays.

gls2ro 5y ago
What works for adults does not work for children. For example we use different dosages per kg in adults and children. Please note dosage per kg and not total dosage. Also the immune system works differently. So please do not spread this information. It is false in many ways. Children body (especially young ones) works differently than adult body.
- jtc331 5y ago
  Yep. For example with the 1918 flu cytokine storms in younger populations and not in older populations is one proposed explanation for peak mortality being among the young not the elderly.
yucky 5y ago
>What works for adults will work for children. Then why do we have different medication for children?
- bena 5y ago
  Do we though? We have lower strength versions of things because they're smaller. And we don't give them anything that would inhibit development. Those are the differences. Giving something in dosages designed for a 180 lb man to a 50 lb child is bound to be problematic.
jtc331 5y ago
No, that’s not what people are doing or saying. If the side effect rate/safety curve for the vaccines is not age specific then it’s entirely plausible there’s an age crossover point with the disease risk curve given COVID’s risk is wildly slanted towards older ages.
- bena 5y ago
  All disease risk is wildly slanted towards older ages. Old people die. It's what we expect. And the vaccine side effect rate/safety curve you claim to be worried about for the very first time in your life is so astonishingly low, there's never going to be an "age crossover point".
  - jtc331 5y ago
    Re: all diseases that’s not true either. For example the 1918 flu caused significant damage precisely because it affected young people quite significantly.
    - bena 5y ago
      But it affected older people worse, right? You're trying to deny a basic fact, old people are more at risk, as a group, just in general.
      - jtc331 5y ago
        > But it affected older people worse, right? No, incorrect again. Mortality for the 1918 flu peaked at age 28 and was lower in older age groups. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3734171/#!po=0.806452 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3734171/#!po=0.... I’m not denying a basic fact. I’m showing that your knowledge of the facts is not as complete as you seem to think.
        bena 5y ago
        Then it's truly an aberration and not nearly the slam dunk you think it is. Because it was so odd, they specifically looked into it.

jtc331 5y ago

Even the FDA advisory panel raised questions about side effect data with children. And if it’s a giant conspiracy theory, why are so many other countries (in Europe, Taiwan, etc.) explicitly disallowing the vaccines (in some cases specific ones) young age cohorts?

jtc331 5y ago

Is this the study you’re thinking of? https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262866v... It doesn’t appear to be retracted, and found these results: “Results A total of 257 CAEs were identified. Rates per million following dose 2 among males were 162.2 (ages 12-15) and 94.0 (ages 16-17); among females, rates were 13.0 and 13.4 per million, respectively. For boys 12-15 without medical comorbidities receiving their second mRNA vaccination dose, the rate of CAE is 3.7 to 6.1 times higher than their 120-day COVID-19 hospitalization risk as of August 21, 2021 (7-day hospitalizations 1.5/100k population) and 2.6-4.3-fold higher at times of high weekly hospitalization risk (7-day hospitalizations 2.1/100k), such as during January 2021. For boys 16-17 without medical comorbidities, the rate of CAE is currently 2.1 to 3.5 times higher than their 120-day COVID-19 hospitalization risk, and 1.5 to 2.5 times higher at times of high weekly COVID-19 hospitalization.” Given the CDC reported 95% likelihood of hospitalization for vaccine-induced myocarditis those numbers (CAEs and hospitalizations) are in fact something we can compare.