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TFA says that being prescribed ADHD meds as a child increases one's odds of experiencing ADHD in adulthood (compared to having ADHD as a child but refusing to t

TFA says that being prescribed ADHD meds as a child increases one's odds of experiencing ADHD in adulthood (compared to having ADHD as a child but refusing to take meds). Andrew Huberman of Huberman Lab[0] says that giving an ADHD child meds and therapy can allow them to influence their own development in such a way that lowers their odds of experiencing an ADHD in adulthood. I wonder which of these is correct. [0]: https://hubermanlab.com https://hubermanlab.com

LoveMortuus 5y ago
Giving psychotic medications to children feels like a very dangerous experiment, kinda like climate change. I'm not that old, but in my educational period I've never seen or experience anyone who would be ADHD or for whom one would that they need to take some medication. That being said, I come from a farm/vineyard and I've lived most of my life in a village, so my perception is certainly skewed. But I do know that you can't force a kid to do what they don't want to. I never liked vegetables so whenever we had a vegetable soup I didn't eat it, which made my mother angry. Her solution was, that I'm not allowed to leave the table until I eat everything that's on my plate. That gives you two options, either eat the food and be done with it... Or just sit there until the evening and then go to bed. What I'm trying to say is, if a child is full of energy, go outside with them and let them run around, don't give them medication to suppress that energy. I'm not certain what it's called but, it's better to prevent then to cure. It's better to prevent getting cancer then to cure cancer. Or in other words, would you rather prevent getting cancer or get cancer and then cure it?
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  My understanding is that ADHD and it’s medication is actually one of, if not the most, well supported/researched relationships in psychiatry and neurological medicine. It’s also not at all what is being described here; it’s actually a neurodevelopmental disorder, not “full of energy”. The medication doesn’t suppress energy; the medications are actually amphetamines! If it wasn’t being used to an ADHD brain, they’d be considered recreational stimulants.
  - LoveMortuus 5y ago
    Has ADHD been prevalent throughout the history and have I've just been blind or is it a new-ish development (in the past ~100 years)?
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      I don’t know if ADHD has been diagnosed throughout history, but it seems to exist in a similar prevalence internationally regardless of culture, so my suspicion is that because the study of the human brain and behavior is pretty new then neurodevelopmental disorders diagnosis and discovery would be pretty new. It would be like dismissing germ theory because the prevalence of germ theory is about as new as ADHD.
      - zqna 5y ago
        Well, not true. It's very much a disease that was invented in US, and which is propelled by multibillion pharma-business: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/health/the-selling-of-attention-deficit-disorder.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/health/the-selling-of-att...
        inter_netuser 5y ago
        you are doing a great disservice to millions who suffer from a very real condition. Go to a local support group and tell people on disability their problems were invented by multibillion pharma business.
        bobthechef 5y ago
        zqna 5y ago
        They are suffering there where being different and not participating in a rat race is considered as the problem. Here, tell this to my support group.
- nyanpasu64 5y ago
  Forcing children to eat unpleasant foods or go hungry is abuse: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/rs6oy0/realising_a_childhood_punishment_was_fucked_up/hqkieq6/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/rs6oy0/realising_a_c... > I wasn’t able to leave table a few times. One in particular- I used my absent father’s pepper mill and put too much in my mashed potatoes. It burned my mouth and they wouldn’t let me leave until I ate it all. Which I couldn’t do. Crying. Furious. Humiliated. Trapped. > It got late and I started to fall asleep at table. I was greeted with the potatoes as breakfast. Then when I opened my lunchbox at school- there they were. At least I could throw them away. That was the day my anorexia began. There were incidents after where I didn’t eat enough, where I took too much and wasted it- stuck at table in a power struggle I did not understand nor could I win. > My Mom did thuis with with my brother. If food is left out overnight, it is a trigger for him. He sees the food, and immediately thinks he has to eat it. I was forced to eat foods that made me sick, or I just didn't like. So, I would eat while dry heaving, and throwing back up into my mouth. I didn't dare not eat after seeing what my brother went through. That was the start of my eating disorder. I'm completely disconnected from my fullness/hunger cues. To eat mindfully is incredibly difficult because my brain is so used to dissociating while eating. My ED is binge eating because I used to eat a lot of anything I liked to get me through eating small amounts of anything I didn't like. I over-salt everything because I used to use salt to cover the taste of things, and need everything overcooked because my mom would undercook meat.
- xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
  > I've never seen or experience anyone who would be ADHD or for whom one would that they need to take some medication. You must then accept that you are ignorant. By comparison, I have seen and experienced children and adults who, without medication, would be unable to live remotely functional lives. > What I'm trying to say is, if a child is full of energy, go outside with them and let them run around, don't give them medication to suppress that energy. You demonstrate a lack of understanding of ADHD, so I would recommend further research before commenting in the future. It used to be a common misconception that ADD/ADHD was just being full of energy, but that's not remotely accurate. Briefly, there are two dominant classifications: primarily inattentive and primarily impulsive (or hyperactive). There is also a combined impulsive/inattentive. I am inattentive. Among my numerous issues likely related to ADHD, I have trouble falling asleep and waking, I will stay up far too late reading. I make bad decisions when unmedicated, and I am unable to effectively wield the concept of time. Letting me run around as a child would accomplish nothing. > I'm not certain what it's called but, it's better to prevent then to cure. It's better to prevent getting cancer then to cure cancer. Or in other words, would you rather prevent getting cancer or get cancer and then cure it? Sure? But you're now assuming that ADHD is environmental, which I don't believe to be the modern understanding. It's likely hereditary. In any case, I found your comment quite disheartening.
  - kinjba11 5y ago
    ADHD is a real condition absolutely. However, the symptoms seen all over the board as layman. Which is concerning. How often is ADHD misdiagnosed as a result? If it is hereditary, have we found the gene(s) which would enable us to pinpoint the diagnosis, possibly even before birth? I also have trouble falling asleep and have made bad decisions in the past. I have effective strategies to mitigate. Do I actually have ADHD and need to take amphetamines? I am not saying this of you, but I find it disheartening when people say "it is just my genes, nothing I can do about it". It's fatalistic and a self-fulfilling prophecy. If there actually are unknown environmental factors, that attitude seems to be ignoring them outright. For instance, exposure to large doses of lead as a child might instead be incorrectly diagnosed and interpreted as "just my genes I guess". There are so many poorly understood chemicals swimming around our water supplies, food systems, cosmetics, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we're taking drugs to bandaid something much deeper to blame.
_zamorano_ 5y ago
What about looking to countries who doesn't drug kids like crazy and see the results?
- anonymoushn 5y ago
  I don't think we have good data about this because the prevalence of adult ADHD diagnosis will vary a lot between countries for cultural reasons or because of differences in distributions of careers, even if the underlying level of adult ADHD does not vary.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  What's with medication anxiety?
- BirdieNZ 5y ago
  I wasn't drugged in childhood (other than paracetamol?) and ADHD made adult life incredibly difficult until I started medication. Now it feels like adult life is easy, and I can't believe it is so easy for other people. N=1 but not being drugged didn't prevent ADHD for me.
inter_netuser 5y ago
It is correct to a degree. ADHD is just a short hand for "mild brain impairment/damage of unknown cause" It's not a single disease but a collection of dysexecutive syndromes that impact higher cognitive functions: strategic planning, organization, etc. This could be due to low oxygen during birth, infections (not necessarily CNS invasive), neck/head injuries, chronic pain, sleep disorders, genetics, vitamin deficiencies and a myriad of other causes, pretty much anything. The same medication is utilized as in traumatic brain injury: amphetamines. They are quite effective in both ADHD and TBI, and as been in active use for nearly a 100 years. Both can be often diagnosed by the same psychometric tests, and can be pretty much indistinguishable. Of course, finding mechanisms to cope with impaired executive function can help reduce the need for medication later in life. If you can find the underlying condition, and it happens to be reversible, as is often the case in case of vitamin/mineral deficiencies or some sleep disorders, it can be often eliminated entirely. However, due to paranoia around stimulants in our society there is some laymen hysteria about giving essentially lifelong access to stimulants to adults. It is an extremely harmful attitude, as medication is nothing but just a tool.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  Minor correction: ADHD may be largely attributable to genetics (it had a heritability of 74%!) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0070-0/ https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0070-0/
  - inter_netuser 5y ago
    It could be, but I'm rather distrustful of such high numbers backstopped by nothing but the same exact set of MZ twins they've been using for lab rats for decades now in various studies. How many monozygotic twins can you find with a robust diagnosis of ADHD, and how much money can you afford to spend to thoroughly exclude every other possible cause (TBI, sleep breathing disorders, deficiency, thyroid, autoimmune, neuropathies)? Quite expensive, nobody gonna do that. Science is about finding evidence to support a hypothesis, not some quaint notion of "truth". All that's needed from such studies is to support the "biological cause" conclusion so that you can substantiate the need for a pharmacological as opposed to talk therapy intervention. Those studies certainly support that, but all they really say "ok this is biology". Given a disorder is usually defined by being outside the normal range, as defined by two sigma interval, 5% of people have ADHD by definition. How many of those are due to bad genes, and other causes is actually very hard to say, as there isn't that much profit to be made in discerning this any further.

LoveMortuus 5y ago

Giving psychotic medications to children feels like a very dangerous experiment, kinda like climate change. I'm not that old, but in my educational period I've never seen or experience anyone who would be ADHD or for whom one would that they need to take some medication. That being said, I come from a farm/vineyard and I've lived most of my life in a village, so my perception is certainly skewed. But I do know that you can't force a kid to do what they don't want to. I never liked vegetables so whenever we had a vegetable soup I didn't eat it, which made my mother angry. Her solution was, that I'm not allowed to leave the table until I eat everything that's on my plate. That gives you two options, either eat the food and be done with it... Or just sit there until the evening and then go to bed. What I'm trying to say is, if a child is full of energy, go outside with them and let them run around, don't give them medication to suppress that energy. I'm not certain what it's called but, it's better to prevent then to cure. It's better to prevent getting cancer then to cure cancer. Or in other words, would you rather prevent getting cancer or get cancer and then cure it?

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
My understanding is that ADHD and it’s medication is actually one of, if not the most, well supported/researched relationships in psychiatry and neurological medicine. It’s also not at all what is being described here; it’s actually a neurodevelopmental disorder, not “full of energy”. The medication doesn’t suppress energy; the medications are actually amphetamines! If it wasn’t being used to an ADHD brain, they’d be considered recreational stimulants.
- LoveMortuus 5y ago
  Has ADHD been prevalent throughout the history and have I've just been blind or is it a new-ish development (in the past ~100 years)?
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    I don’t know if ADHD has been diagnosed throughout history, but it seems to exist in a similar prevalence internationally regardless of culture, so my suspicion is that because the study of the human brain and behavior is pretty new then neurodevelopmental disorders diagnosis and discovery would be pretty new. It would be like dismissing germ theory because the prevalence of germ theory is about as new as ADHD.
    - zqna 5y ago
      Well, not true. It's very much a disease that was invented in US, and which is propelled by multibillion pharma-business: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/health/the-selling-of-attention-deficit-disorder.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/health/the-selling-of-att...
      - inter_netuser 5y ago
        you are doing a great disservice to millions who suffer from a very real condition. Go to a local support group and tell people on disability their problems were invented by multibillion pharma business.
        bobthechef 5y ago
        zqna 5y ago
        They are suffering there where being different and not participating in a rat race is considered as the problem. Here, tell this to my support group.
nyanpasu64 5y ago
Forcing children to eat unpleasant foods or go hungry is abuse: https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/rs6oy0/realising_a_childhood_punishment_was_fucked_up/hqkieq6/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/comments/rs6oy0/realising_a_c... > I wasn’t able to leave table a few times. One in particular- I used my absent father’s pepper mill and put too much in my mashed potatoes. It burned my mouth and they wouldn’t let me leave until I ate it all. Which I couldn’t do. Crying. Furious. Humiliated. Trapped. > It got late and I started to fall asleep at table. I was greeted with the potatoes as breakfast. Then when I opened my lunchbox at school- there they were. At least I could throw them away. That was the day my anorexia began. There were incidents after where I didn’t eat enough, where I took too much and wasted it- stuck at table in a power struggle I did not understand nor could I win. > My Mom did thuis with with my brother. If food is left out overnight, it is a trigger for him. He sees the food, and immediately thinks he has to eat it. I was forced to eat foods that made me sick, or I just didn't like. So, I would eat while dry heaving, and throwing back up into my mouth. I didn't dare not eat after seeing what my brother went through. That was the start of my eating disorder. I'm completely disconnected from my fullness/hunger cues. To eat mindfully is incredibly difficult because my brain is so used to dissociating while eating. My ED is binge eating because I used to eat a lot of anything I liked to get me through eating small amounts of anything I didn't like. I over-salt everything because I used to use salt to cover the taste of things, and need everything overcooked because my mom would undercook meat.
xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
> I've never seen or experience anyone who would be ADHD or for whom one would that they need to take some medication. You must then accept that you are ignorant. By comparison, I have seen and experienced children and adults who, without medication, would be unable to live remotely functional lives. > What I'm trying to say is, if a child is full of energy, go outside with them and let them run around, don't give them medication to suppress that energy. You demonstrate a lack of understanding of ADHD, so I would recommend further research before commenting in the future. It used to be a common misconception that ADD/ADHD was just being full of energy, but that's not remotely accurate. Briefly, there are two dominant classifications: primarily inattentive and primarily impulsive (or hyperactive). There is also a combined impulsive/inattentive. I am inattentive. Among my numerous issues likely related to ADHD, I have trouble falling asleep and waking, I will stay up far too late reading. I make bad decisions when unmedicated, and I am unable to effectively wield the concept of time. Letting me run around as a child would accomplish nothing. > I'm not certain what it's called but, it's better to prevent then to cure. It's better to prevent getting cancer then to cure cancer. Or in other words, would you rather prevent getting cancer or get cancer and then cure it? Sure? But you're now assuming that ADHD is environmental, which I don't believe to be the modern understanding. It's likely hereditary. In any case, I found your comment quite disheartening.
- kinjba11 5y ago
  ADHD is a real condition absolutely. However, the symptoms seen all over the board as layman. Which is concerning. How often is ADHD misdiagnosed as a result? If it is hereditary, have we found the gene(s) which would enable us to pinpoint the diagnosis, possibly even before birth? I also have trouble falling asleep and have made bad decisions in the past. I have effective strategies to mitigate. Do I actually have ADHD and need to take amphetamines? I am not saying this of you, but I find it disheartening when people say "it is just my genes, nothing I can do about it". It's fatalistic and a self-fulfilling prophecy. If there actually are unknown environmental factors, that attitude seems to be ignoring them outright. For instance, exposure to large doses of lead as a child might instead be incorrectly diagnosed and interpreted as "just my genes I guess". There are so many poorly understood chemicals swimming around our water supplies, food systems, cosmetics, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if we're taking drugs to bandaid something much deeper to blame.

_zamorano_ 5y ago

What about looking to countries who doesn't drug kids like crazy and see the results?

anonymoushn 5y ago
I don't think we have good data about this because the prevalence of adult ADHD diagnosis will vary a lot between countries for cultural reasons or because of differences in distributions of careers, even if the underlying level of adult ADHD does not vary.
inter_netuser 5y ago
What's with medication anxiety?
BirdieNZ 5y ago
I wasn't drugged in childhood (other than paracetamol?) and ADHD made adult life incredibly difficult until I started medication. Now it feels like adult life is easy, and I can't believe it is so easy for other people. N=1 but not being drugged didn't prevent ADHD for me.

inter_netuser 5y ago

It is correct to a degree. ADHD is just a short hand for "mild brain impairment/damage of unknown cause" It's not a single disease but a collection of dysexecutive syndromes that impact higher cognitive functions: strategic planning, organization, etc. This could be due to low oxygen during birth, infections (not necessarily CNS invasive), neck/head injuries, chronic pain, sleep disorders, genetics, vitamin deficiencies and a myriad of other causes, pretty much anything. The same medication is utilized as in traumatic brain injury: amphetamines. They are quite effective in both ADHD and TBI, and as been in active use for nearly a 100 years. Both can be often diagnosed by the same psychometric tests, and can be pretty much indistinguishable. Of course, finding mechanisms to cope with impaired executive function can help reduce the need for medication later in life. If you can find the underlying condition, and it happens to be reversible, as is often the case in case of vitamin/mineral deficiencies or some sleep disorders, it can be often eliminated entirely. However, due to paranoia around stimulants in our society there is some laymen hysteria about giving essentially lifelong access to stimulants to adults. It is an extremely harmful attitude, as medication is nothing but just a tool.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
Minor correction: ADHD may be largely attributable to genetics (it had a heritability of 74%!) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0070-0/ https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-018-0070-0/
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  It could be, but I'm rather distrustful of such high numbers backstopped by nothing but the same exact set of MZ twins they've been using for lab rats for decades now in various studies. How many monozygotic twins can you find with a robust diagnosis of ADHD, and how much money can you afford to spend to thoroughly exclude every other possible cause (TBI, sleep breathing disorders, deficiency, thyroid, autoimmune, neuropathies)? Quite expensive, nobody gonna do that. Science is about finding evidence to support a hypothesis, not some quaint notion of "truth". All that's needed from such studies is to support the "biological cause" conclusion so that you can substantiate the need for a pharmacological as opposed to talk therapy intervention. Those studies certainly support that, but all they really say "ok this is biology". Given a disorder is usually defined by being outside the normal range, as defined by two sigma interval, 5% of people have ADHD by definition. How many of those are due to bad genes, and other causes is actually very hard to say, as there isn't that much profit to be made in discerning this any further.