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I don't think it is an oversimplification. I think you are making some over simplified libertarian purity test. Even at the most conservative estimates, the num

I don't think it is an oversimplification. I think you are making some over simplified libertarian purity test. Even at the most conservative estimates, the numbers clearly show there are many more libertarians than vote for libertarian parties (or donate to, which is a reasonable if not ideal proxy for donations by libertarians I would say). Your original point doesn't stand, many libertarians support Republicans. It's truly weird logic that you (begrudgingly) accept that libertarians vote for Republicans, and yet you think any other form of "active" support would be out of the question. Doesn't make any sense. If a libertarian wanted to be active in politics it's quite reasonable to think many would support the same candidates they vote for.

skinnymuch 5y ago
Your strong bias and attitude showed in your other comment on Clinton and Bush as pathetic warmongering neoliberals. It is not incorrect. However to bring those up and exclude Trump or any other very high up politician of the two parties of not being the same thing except some are neoconservatives (which is close to neoliberals), is telling. Your gaslighting tactics have become more pronounced now too. I never begrudgingly accepted what you stated. I believe I had an apt example. A person identifying in good faith as a socialist isn’t going to be supporting establishment Dems like Thiel and Rand Paul and similar “libertarians” do for their counterparts. I believe you or someone else brought up The Squad. Which has an easy response - the socialist supporters of theirs are not them. The Squad are also not socialists. They are progressives or democratic socialists. Affiliations with differences that are bigger than neolibs and neocons, imho. I see this is likely about the well worn tactic of conservative [republicans] not identifying as such. Leftists don’t have a pattern of hiding this way. OTOH, there are countless examples of traditional belief right wingers who continue to do this. Supporters around them will continue to dig their heels in saying this facade is not so. All of this fits with your belief that it is not an oversimplification to label centrists, center-left, neoliberals, progressives, hard leftists, and further on the left all as liberal.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Reality is not "bias" and disdain for warmongers is not "attitude". Sorry you feel that way, it really shows in the rest of your comment. And if you didn't accept that, it wasn't gaslighting it was a mistake on my behalf. I thought you did -- you still honestly don't believe many libertarians vote Republican? The data just doesn't agree with you, so either you're willfully ignorant of it or using some no true libertarian fallacy. > see this is likely about the well worn tactic of conservative [republicans] not identifying as such. Leftists don’t have a pattern of hiding this way. OTOH, there are countless examples of traditional belief right wingers who continue to do this. Supporters around them will continue to dig their heels in saying this facade is not so. That's all based on your no true libertarian beliefs that don't match reality though. > All of this fits with your belief that it is not an oversimplification to label centrists, center-left, neoliberals, progressives, hard leftists, and further on the left all as liberal. I have no such belief. Since you bring them up, many people in the above categories from centrists to communists vote for and support the Democratic party. That doesn't make them not-a-hard-leftist, not even though many of them actually describe the Democrats as a right wing party and claim to dislike many of their policies! I don't know why you have such a mental block about libertarians who support Republicans.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    > no true libertarian fallacy The fallacy is about something specific. Not this. Is it a fallacy to say the Workers Party of Korea lead by Kim Jung un isn’t socialist? Or the PRC isn’t socialist? > warmonger Trump didn’t leave Afghanistan. After spending his entire campaign and presidency talking about how amazing he was for being against Iraq and seeing mistakes made this century. Did he do anything to help out in the Middle East? Yemen continued being pillaged by America thru Saudi. Same with Palestine. Trump did the pointless escalation of the Iranian general murder too. That was my point. I said Trump was excluded in my last comment too. I also said it’s not incorrect to say they are warmongers. > I have no such belief. You linked to the two sites with studies/data, no? You bring up that data in other parts of your comment. They combined everything listed as liberal. I questioned that and you didn’t have an issue with it. I’d like to see any non tiny portion of socialists or any one more to the left, support Dems. Voting for is not supporting. Dem[s] and especially lib[eral] are used as pejoratives frequently in those circles. makes supporting the Dem party contradictory. You said many will describe Dem party as right wing. How would they be supporting the party then? So again it’s not the same thing. Your words like “mental block” saying I am stubborn. I understand if you believe those things about socialists and communists then you will not believe IMO more accurate critiques and accountability of a number of the people who say they are libertarians — Since it has been two days, a response might not happen. My tldr overall pt: many of the identifying libertarians aren’t as such. Prime example is some one brought up already - Rand Paul. The far left not wavering on their principles so much like supposed libertarians is telling.

skinnymuch 5y ago

Your strong bias and attitude showed in your other comment on Clinton and Bush as pathetic warmongering neoliberals. It is not incorrect. However to bring those up and exclude Trump or any other very high up politician of the two parties of not being the same thing except some are neoconservatives (which is close to neoliberals), is telling. Your gaslighting tactics have become more pronounced now too. I never begrudgingly accepted what you stated. I believe I had an apt example. A person identifying in good faith as a socialist isn’t going to be supporting establishment Dems like Thiel and Rand Paul and similar “libertarians” do for their counterparts. I believe you or someone else brought up The Squad. Which has an easy response - the socialist supporters of theirs are not them. The Squad are also not socialists. They are progressives or democratic socialists. Affiliations with differences that are bigger than neolibs and neocons, imho. I see this is likely about the well worn tactic of conservative [republicans] not identifying as such. Leftists don’t have a pattern of hiding this way. OTOH, there are countless examples of traditional belief right wingers who continue to do this. Supporters around them will continue to dig their heels in saying this facade is not so. All of this fits with your belief that it is not an oversimplification to label centrists, center-left, neoliberals, progressives, hard leftists, and further on the left all as liberal.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Reality is not "bias" and disdain for warmongers is not "attitude". Sorry you feel that way, it really shows in the rest of your comment. And if you didn't accept that, it wasn't gaslighting it was a mistake on my behalf. I thought you did -- you still honestly don't believe many libertarians vote Republican? The data just doesn't agree with you, so either you're willfully ignorant of it or using some no true libertarian fallacy. > see this is likely about the well worn tactic of conservative [republicans] not identifying as such. Leftists don’t have a pattern of hiding this way. OTOH, there are countless examples of traditional belief right wingers who continue to do this. Supporters around them will continue to dig their heels in saying this facade is not so. That's all based on your no true libertarian beliefs that don't match reality though. > All of this fits with your belief that it is not an oversimplification to label centrists, center-left, neoliberals, progressives, hard leftists, and further on the left all as liberal. I have no such belief. Since you bring them up, many people in the above categories from centrists to communists vote for and support the Democratic party. That doesn't make them not-a-hard-leftist, not even though many of them actually describe the Democrats as a right wing party and claim to dislike many of their policies! I don't know why you have such a mental block about libertarians who support Republicans.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  > no true libertarian fallacy The fallacy is about something specific. Not this. Is it a fallacy to say the Workers Party of Korea lead by Kim Jung un isn’t socialist? Or the PRC isn’t socialist? > warmonger Trump didn’t leave Afghanistan. After spending his entire campaign and presidency talking about how amazing he was for being against Iraq and seeing mistakes made this century. Did he do anything to help out in the Middle East? Yemen continued being pillaged by America thru Saudi. Same with Palestine. Trump did the pointless escalation of the Iranian general murder too. That was my point. I said Trump was excluded in my last comment too. I also said it’s not incorrect to say they are warmongers. > I have no such belief. You linked to the two sites with studies/data, no? You bring up that data in other parts of your comment. They combined everything listed as liberal. I questioned that and you didn’t have an issue with it. I’d like to see any non tiny portion of socialists or any one more to the left, support Dems. Voting for is not supporting. Dem[s] and especially lib[eral] are used as pejoratives frequently in those circles. makes supporting the Dem party contradictory. You said many will describe Dem party as right wing. How would they be supporting the party then? So again it’s not the same thing. Your words like “mental block” saying I am stubborn. I understand if you believe those things about socialists and communists then you will not believe IMO more accurate critiques and accountability of a number of the people who say they are libertarians — Since it has been two days, a response might not happen. My tldr overall pt: many of the identifying libertarians aren’t as such. Prime example is some one brought up already - Rand Paul. The far left not wavering on their principles so much like supposed libertarians is telling.