6 ms·

If Web3 is built on blockchain, do people (miners per se) need to download the whole _internet_ in order to keep it decentralized?

mattwilsonn888 5y ago
That vision of Web3, "Just put everything on the blockchain" is doomed to fail and I don't know anyone who ever seriously proposed it. Blockchains are best suited for data subject to manipulation, i.e. data in which there is profit to alter. If we were to naivly build "Web3" in theory with this in mind, then the majority of activity would be peer-to-peer, federated, or partially centralized, while the exchange of security credentials would take place on an efficient broadcast layer. The trick is to do as much off chain as possible - and if trust becomes an issue, develop a minimally on chain scheme. Its still early days, if you ask me how exactly this looks in 20 years I couldn't tell you.
- enisdenjo 5y ago
  How do you develop a minimal chain scheme for increasing trust? As in, do you first get people to your website and then ask them to contribute in decentralization by downloading the chain? Bitcoin cannot work without people noticing and liking Bitcoin. If it didn't get traction, it'd still be centralized haha - only one entity would have the whole chain.
shrimpx 5y ago
Not sure why you’re downvoted because this is a legit question. Even if web3 is build on a large number of blockchains, you still need whole blockchains downloaded in order to be trustless. Currently probably only a tiny percentage of crypto users have downloaded whole blockchains, and instead defer to third parties.
- enisdenjo 5y ago
  Exactly, the chain would increase indefinitely begging 2 questions: - Who would even want to keep it? - Is using blockchains even worth it? Like, if you defer the download to third parties - isn't it again being centralized?
hnbad 5y ago
This is a common misconception. Web3 mostly exists off chain. Storing everything on the blockchain would not only take a lot of space (and thus be extremely expensive) but also be horribly slow. Web3 apps generally use the blockchain more as an audit log. There's a reason most of the web3 apps crypto believers give as examples for web3 apps that actually work are trading apps. FWIW I think most people base this of a misunderstanding of how NFTs work based on the claims around it: NFTs prove ownership of a hash. That hash is associated with a URL. That URL points to a JSON document. That JSON document points to the NFT art piece (i.e. the "JPEG"). If the service hosting the JSON document (or the service hosting the art piece) goes away, the hash becomes a simulacrum, an identifier with no identifiee. It still indicates ownership but only to those who already know that this is what it does. There can be JPEGs on the blockchain (and allegedly there is already CSAM on at least one of them) but due to the size constraints this isn't how things usually work. This isn't even getting into multi-layer approaches which came about because while web3 is built on ETH, actually doing anything with the ETH chain is extremely rate limited and has extremely high transaction costs, so other chains have been built on top of it that as I understand it just bulk commit hashes of snapshots or something to it. FWIW the "first you download the Internet" solution already exists and is called IPFS. There is also a solution called Freenet that focuses on anonymity and avoiding censorship. Predictably the biggest problem with downloading the Internet is that you unknowingly (or knowingly) start collecting illegal content like CSAM, which may be a serious crime depending on where you live.
- enisdenjo 5y ago
  So, is blockchain therefore even needed? Why should you even "first you download the internet" (or even a subset of it)? I just want to watch some cat videos. Confirming data integrity and origin is already solved - thanks digital signatures and checksums.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    In case my bias wasn't clear enough: no, they're a solution looking for a problem and right now the biggest problems they're targeting seem to be a lack of grey market money laundering and pyramid schemes.
yazaddaruvala 5y ago
The way I’ve heard it laid out is: Web3 will handle IP address and DNS storage, sale, and search using basically NFTs on the blockchain. Meanwhile, HTTP content hosting will still be kept separate (maybe IPFS, maybe something centralized depending on the need). Current example: NFTs typically store metadata on the blockchain and the content in IPFS.

mattwilsonn888 5y ago

That vision of Web3, "Just put everything on the blockchain" is doomed to fail and I don't know anyone who ever seriously proposed it. Blockchains are best suited for data subject to manipulation, i.e. data in which there is profit to alter. If we were to naivly build "Web3" in theory with this in mind, then the majority of activity would be peer-to-peer, federated, or partially centralized, while the exchange of security credentials would take place on an efficient broadcast layer. The trick is to do as much off chain as possible - and if trust becomes an issue, develop a minimally on chain scheme. Its still early days, if you ask me how exactly this looks in 20 years I couldn't tell you.

enisdenjo 5y ago
How do you develop a minimal chain scheme for increasing trust? As in, do you first get people to your website and then ask them to contribute in decentralization by downloading the chain? Bitcoin cannot work without people noticing and liking Bitcoin. If it didn't get traction, it'd still be centralized haha - only one entity would have the whole chain.

shrimpx 5y ago

Not sure why you’re downvoted because this is a legit question. Even if web3 is build on a large number of blockchains, you still need whole blockchains downloaded in order to be trustless. Currently probably only a tiny percentage of crypto users have downloaded whole blockchains, and instead defer to third parties.

enisdenjo 5y ago
Exactly, the chain would increase indefinitely begging 2 questions: - Who would even want to keep it? - Is using blockchains even worth it? Like, if you defer the download to third parties - isn't it again being centralized?

hnbad 5y ago

This is a common misconception. Web3 mostly exists off chain. Storing everything on the blockchain would not only take a lot of space (and thus be extremely expensive) but also be horribly slow. Web3 apps generally use the blockchain more as an audit log. There's a reason most of the web3 apps crypto believers give as examples for web3 apps that actually work are trading apps. FWIW I think most people base this of a misunderstanding of how NFTs work based on the claims around it: NFTs prove ownership of a hash. That hash is associated with a URL. That URL points to a JSON document. That JSON document points to the NFT art piece (i.e. the "JPEG"). If the service hosting the JSON document (or the service hosting the art piece) goes away, the hash becomes a simulacrum, an identifier with no identifiee. It still indicates ownership but only to those who already know that this is what it does. There can be JPEGs on the blockchain (and allegedly there is already CSAM on at least one of them) but due to the size constraints this isn't how things usually work. This isn't even getting into multi-layer approaches which came about because while web3 is built on ETH, actually doing anything with the ETH chain is extremely rate limited and has extremely high transaction costs, so other chains have been built on top of it that as I understand it just bulk commit hashes of snapshots or something to it. FWIW the "first you download the Internet" solution already exists and is called IPFS. There is also a solution called Freenet that focuses on anonymity and avoiding censorship. Predictably the biggest problem with downloading the Internet is that you unknowingly (or knowingly) start collecting illegal content like CSAM, which may be a serious crime depending on where you live.

enisdenjo 5y ago
So, is blockchain therefore even needed? Why should you even "first you download the internet" (or even a subset of it)? I just want to watch some cat videos. Confirming data integrity and origin is already solved - thanks digital signatures and checksums.
- hnbad 5y ago
  In case my bias wasn't clear enough: no, they're a solution looking for a problem and right now the biggest problems they're targeting seem to be a lack of grey market money laundering and pyramid schemes.

yazaddaruvala 5y ago

The way I’ve heard it laid out is: Web3 will handle IP address and DNS storage, sale, and search using basically NFTs on the blockchain. Meanwhile, HTTP content hosting will still be kept separate (maybe IPFS, maybe something centralized depending on the need). Current example: NFTs typically store metadata on the blockchain and the content in IPFS.