5 ms·

I'm slowly coming around to web3 as an idea after giving it a lot of thought. For me, MMOs are a great boostrap for thinking about this. People pay real money f

by madrox 5y ago

I'm slowly coming around to web3 as an idea after giving it a lot of thought. For me, MMOs are a great boostrap for thinking about this. People pay real money for in-game items and currency...usually from the developer, but web3 enables players to buy/sell directly (and allowing this can be a product draw, much like APIs were for Twitter). Web3 technologies can enable an ecosystem for this without a bunch of bespoke work that likely isn't core to what a business is trying to achieve. However, I don't see it as a "web3 all the things" like web2 was, but as a set of protocols for certain kinds of behavior we're beginning to see online more and more. We'd probably add it in without thought (like we did Facebook's share buttons 10 years ago) if the tech weren't so complicated and the energy concerns so pernicious. A lot of the success will come down to how successful everyone is at standardizing on schemas. In a decentralized world, I'm skeptical of that working out better than it did for web2, but I wish everyone luck.

dmitriid 5y ago
> but web3 enables players to buy/sell directly (and allowing this can be a product draw, much like APIs were for Twitter). Web3 technologies can enable an ecosystem for this without a bunch of bespoke work that likely isn't core to what a business is trying to achieve. I'm old enough to remember that in the ancient history of just 10 years ago Diablo III was released with an auction house that let people buy and sell items from other players for real money. I'm also old anough to remember that in the ancient history of just 7 years ago it was removed from the game and I also am old enough to remember the reasons. Having players trade in-game items is not as good a proposition for "what a business is trying to achieve" as you think it is.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  9 years ago Valve launched Steam Community Market. Still running still making them stupid amounts of money and providing some value to consumers. I see no reason why this blockchainless centralized solution couldn't be replicated by anyone else in industry... No need for NFTs. Just do it...
  - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
    It's likely because you can make more money by holding more control over the supply. Even users of the Steam Market would scoff a bit at it - they would rather have it be without taxes and exchangeable for real money. I wonder if there is a web3 solution already in place which could achieve that...
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      Is there feeless web3? If there were no taxes, how would the people running it make money?
      - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
        That's my mistake - indeed nothing is free, but when the protocol is open source and interchangeable the market will settle on a sustainable marketplace which users prefer the most; price will of course play a role in that. Point being I'm not sure Steam is simply compensating their database operations with their marketplace tax, and that they have no competition for market making their own items.
        dmitriid 5y ago
        > that they have no competition for market making their own items. They will not have the competition. Because it's their items, and they chose to only support items sold through their marketplace.
        mattwilsonn888 5y ago
        Yes, you can reiterate.
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > It's likely because you can make more money by holding more control over the supply. Because, surprise-surprise, businesses are not charities. They do need to earn money. > they would rather have it be without taxes and exchangeable for real money. Of course users want all the perks with none of the responsibilities: let the business support all these items in perpetuity while users trade them outside of the business' purview.
- mattwilsonn888 5y ago
  With all due respect, the point of all these crypto buzzwords is to forgo what's 'good' for [centralized] businesses in favor of what users want. I can imagine the vast majority of Diablo players (assuming the market was ran legitimately) would prefer to still have the market, while Blizzard discovered they could make more money closing it. A high ideal (to me) for web3 is that users can uphold the system they want and be compensated for doing so at the same time. While the web3 example still features a creator and early investors who may make the most money, users will prefer the market which promises to stay up via its contract code. We may be a long way from enough users understanding this to influence developers, and it may never reach that perfectly, but that's the direction web3 can hopefully push things.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > the point of all these crypto buzzwords is to forgo what's 'good' for [centralized] businesses in favor of what users want. The point I was replying to was literally this: "Web3 technologies can enable an ecosystem for this without a bunch of bespoke work that likely isn't core to what a business is trying to achieve." The core business can actually be hurt by unchecked trading of items. > I can imagine the vast majority of Diablo players (assuming the market was ran legitimately) would prefer to still have the market Why don't you go and ask the vast majority of Diablo players before making these assumptions? > We may be a long way from enough users understanding this to influence developers, How do you "influence developers" by trading some items outside the core of what the developers are building? BTW, building tradable items can and usually is still outside the core of what business is building. > but that's the direction web3 can hopefully push things. Ah yes, the hope that web3 may push towards unchecked trading of meaningless items (meaningless outside the game/business in question) that actually ruins the core game experience.
    - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
      > The core business can actually be hurt by unchecked trading of items. Again, that's the point. Its obvious centralized market makers only make money when they control the market and limit market freedom, which is why its easy to imagine the players in general would prefer to avoid such a tax/manipulation/centralizing forces. > How do you "influence developers" by trading some items outside the core of what the developers are building? By placing personal value in systems that give users more freedom and assurance of the protocols they initially bought into. When people can understand that that is what they are being offered with a 'web3' approach, they can influence developers to build what's most demanded, i.e. basic economics. > Ah yes, the hope that web3 may push towards unchecked trading of meaningless items (meaningless outside the game/business in question) that actually ruins the core game experience. Ahh so Diablo items are meaningless now? Maybe to you, but certainly not to many other players as you've demonstrated. What about decentralized exchange protocols is unchecked? Its as safe as the blockchain itself - perhaps you are thinking of government regulations.

by madrox 5y ago

dmitriid 5y ago

> but web3 enables players to buy/sell directly (and allowing this can be a product draw, much like APIs were for Twitter). Web3 technologies can enable an ecosystem for this without a bunch of bespoke work that likely isn't core to what a business is trying to achieve. I'm old enough to remember that in the ancient history of just 10 years ago Diablo III was released with an auction house that let people buy and sell items from other players for real money. I'm also old anough to remember that in the ancient history of just 7 years ago it was removed from the game and I also am old enough to remember the reasons. Having players trade in-game items is not as good a proposition for "what a business is trying to achieve" as you think it is.

Ekaros 5y ago
9 years ago Valve launched Steam Community Market. Still running still making them stupid amounts of money and providing some value to consumers. I see no reason why this blockchainless centralized solution couldn't be replicated by anyone else in industry... No need for NFTs. Just do it...
- mattwilsonn888 5y ago
  It's likely because you can make more money by holding more control over the supply. Even users of the Steam Market would scoff a bit at it - they would rather have it be without taxes and exchangeable for real money. I wonder if there is a web3 solution already in place which could achieve that...
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Is there feeless web3? If there were no taxes, how would the people running it make money?
    - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
      That's my mistake - indeed nothing is free, but when the protocol is open source and interchangeable the market will settle on a sustainable marketplace which users prefer the most; price will of course play a role in that. Point being I'm not sure Steam is simply compensating their database operations with their marketplace tax, and that they have no competition for market making their own items.
      - dmitriid 5y ago
        > that they have no competition for market making their own items. They will not have the competition. Because it's their items, and they chose to only support items sold through their marketplace.
        mattwilsonn888 5y ago
        Yes, you can reiterate.
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > It's likely because you can make more money by holding more control over the supply. Because, surprise-surprise, businesses are not charities. They do need to earn money. > they would rather have it be without taxes and exchangeable for real money. Of course users want all the perks with none of the responsibilities: let the business support all these items in perpetuity while users trade them outside of the business' purview.
mattwilsonn888 5y ago
With all due respect, the point of all these crypto buzzwords is to forgo what's 'good' for [centralized] businesses in favor of what users want. I can imagine the vast majority of Diablo players (assuming the market was ran legitimately) would prefer to still have the market, while Blizzard discovered they could make more money closing it. A high ideal (to me) for web3 is that users can uphold the system they want and be compensated for doing so at the same time. While the web3 example still features a creator and early investors who may make the most money, users will prefer the market which promises to stay up via its contract code. We may be a long way from enough users understanding this to influence developers, and it may never reach that perfectly, but that's the direction web3 can hopefully push things.
- dmitriid 5y ago
  > the point of all these crypto buzzwords is to forgo what's 'good' for [centralized] businesses in favor of what users want. The point I was replying to was literally this: "Web3 technologies can enable an ecosystem for this without a bunch of bespoke work that likely isn't core to what a business is trying to achieve." The core business can actually be hurt by unchecked trading of items. > I can imagine the vast majority of Diablo players (assuming the market was ran legitimately) would prefer to still have the market Why don't you go and ask the vast majority of Diablo players before making these assumptions? > We may be a long way from enough users understanding this to influence developers, How do you "influence developers" by trading some items outside the core of what the developers are building? BTW, building tradable items can and usually is still outside the core of what business is building. > but that's the direction web3 can hopefully push things. Ah yes, the hope that web3 may push towards unchecked trading of meaningless items (meaningless outside the game/business in question) that actually ruins the core game experience.
  - mattwilsonn888 5y ago
    > The core business can actually be hurt by unchecked trading of items. Again, that's the point. Its obvious centralized market makers only make money when they control the market and limit market freedom, which is why its easy to imagine the players in general would prefer to avoid such a tax/manipulation/centralizing forces. > How do you "influence developers" by trading some items outside the core of what the developers are building? By placing personal value in systems that give users more freedom and assurance of the protocols they initially bought into. When people can understand that that is what they are being offered with a 'web3' approach, they can influence developers to build what's most demanded, i.e. basic economics. > Ah yes, the hope that web3 may push towards unchecked trading of meaningless items (meaningless outside the game/business in question) that actually ruins the core game experience. Ahh so Diablo items are meaningless now? Maybe to you, but certainly not to many other players as you've demonstrated. What about decentralized exchange protocols is unchecked? Its as safe as the blockchain itself - perhaps you are thinking of government regulations.