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> Not much frustrates me more than the overlap of two common interests among hippies: a vocal devotion to animal welfare, and a love for Chinese medicine (among

> Not much frustrates me more than the overlap of two common interests among hippies: a vocal devotion to animal welfare, and a love for Chinese medicine (among other forms of medical fraud). That’s really frustrating, but the non-hippies haven’t found an answer yet. For example, there’s no milk that you can buy in germany that has the same strict rules for animal welfare as demeter-certified milk, but Demeter also requires the farmer to perform magic rituals such as burying cow horns at full moon. There’s no animal welfare label that adopts the Demeter standards but leaves out the magic. > Hippies cause climate change with anti-nuclear activism, and run some species of animal into extinction. Blaming hippies for climate change and for the extinction of the white rhino is unfair. They’re neither the only or even primary believers in magic potions from animal parts nor are they the primary advocate for a huge chunk of the energy we use (think: cars that consume more every year, global travel, larger and larger footprint of land use,…) Quite often they’re among the ones adopting eco-friendly policies before they become mainstream (downsize, recycle & reuse, car free cities, …). They’re certainly wrong on a lot of things, but they’re also advocating for change that no other parties dare to yet.

serverlessmom 5y ago
TIL: That there is a brand of milk in Germany that involves moonlit rituals? I tried looking up this information on their website and didn't see anything about it. Could you possibly link me to more information about this? I'm really curious. I do hope that someday hippies and non hippies alike find an answer for climate change and general wellness of the planet and all it's creatures.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  I only have a German reference. There’s multiple brands of bio products that are Demeter certified, milk, meat, cheese, … The Demeter Bio Label requires “Hornmist” and “Hornkiesel” as fertilizer as per their guidelines, see Section 7.3 (1) and (2) https://www.demeter.de/sites/default/files/richtlinien/richtlinien_gesamt.pdf https://www.demeter.de/sites/default/files/richtlinien/richt... Hornmist is dung-filled cow horns that get buried at full moon preferably, later dig out and spread: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornmist https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornmist Hornkiesel is similar, cow horns filled with ground up crystal: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornkiesel https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornkiesel It’s really vexing, because for animal welfare and general biodiversity requirements, they’re the toughest standards, but they have those magic cult-like rituals buried in there.
  - AniseAbyss 5y ago
    What if I told you people are lying pieces of shit, say that they care about animal welfare in surveys and then in the supermarket buy the cheapest brand anyway?
    - igorkraw 5y ago
      I'd call you an unproductive cynic, point to the rise in eco and vegan labels that empirically provides counter evidence and move on. This perspective adds nothing but a feeling of superiority, I'd rather think about how to replace the culty brand with a secular one and figure out how to work on climate change and corporate misconduct in my small capacity
  - lkozma 5y ago
    Honest question: who does it harm? These aspects that you mention may not be to your (or to my) taste, but if they are relatively harmless and the other stuff is overwhelmingly good, why not let it go?
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      Fundamentally, the ritualistic behavior harms belief in science. Doing things because we believe in magic of any kind is fostering belief in other magic - for example healing by similar magic, the roots for both go back to Rudolf Steiner.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    I believe the English term for this may be “bio-dynamic”, which is a movement similar to the organic movement but with stricter standards, and more emphasis on what farming techniques you should use (crop rotation, etc), rather than just what you shouldn’t do (e.g. use pesticides). From what I’ve seen, there seem to be a bunch of good ideas in there, along with a lot of ritual rubbish.
    - Xylakant 5y ago
      I buy one of the Demeter-certified brands of milk. It’s just the best you can buy, taste wise if you ask me. It still irks me that I have to choose between good milk from ethically raised cows and not supporting belief in magic.
yakshaving_jgt 5y ago
It's most likely true that hippies aren't the largest group of believers in magical potions from animal parts — I certainly don't have the numbers and I'm going by intuition, but there's likely also a difference between the number of people and the size of the market created by those people. Not all people have equal purchasing power. I think all else being equal, it would be unfair of me to make this characterisation, but I'm not holding these two groups of people to the same standard. I think the two groups we are talking about are people in rural China and Vietnam, and hippies in the Western world who are likely educated to a much higher standard than the rural Chinese and Vietnamese. To be clear: this is not a comment on education standards in China or Vietnam universally — I'm well aware that both countries are among the forerunners in medical science. I do think Western hippies should know better though, which is why I'm more comfortable demonising them rather than people growing up with less opportunity to benefit from a modern education. As an aside, I don't think Vietnam as neatly fits the Venn diagram I described in my original comment. I lived in Vietnam for a while, and animal welfare is less of a thing there than in most of the West. I want to be clear also that while I said that "hippies cause climate change", I don't place exclusive blame on them for it. That would be silly. I think it's important to recognise however that the holier than thou attitudes of PETA, XR, Greta Thunberg and others do not actually help alleviate any of the problems facing society, despite their best intentions. > They’re certainly wrong on a lot of things, but they’re also advocating for change that no other parties dare to yet. You're right — people and organisations aren't quite so binary. I think that's in line with the spirit of my original comment, although I worded it more antagonistically.
- Xylakant 5y ago
  > It's most likely true that hippies aren't the largest group of believers in magical potions from animal parts — I certainly don't have the numbers and I'm going by intuition, but there's likely also a difference between the number of people and the size of the market created by those people. Not all people have equal purchasing power. Despite the difference in purchasing power, there’s no indication that rhino horns get sold in substantial quantities in the western sphere. There’s certainly people that will purchase it, but the primary market is in Asia and Africa itself. Additionally, as with most endangered species, hunting them is only part of what endangers the population. Destruction of habitat for crops or meat, often sold to Europe and the US is a major contribution. The hippies are truly not at fault here. > I think it's important to recognise however that the holier than thou attitudes of PETA, XR, Greta Thunberg and others do not actually help alleviate any of the problems facing society, despite their best intentions. Why would you lump Greta Thunberg in there? By age alone, she’s not to blame for climate change. And what she does explicitly advocate for is in her own words: “Listen to the scientists” https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2019/sep/18/listen-to-the-scientists-greta-thunberg-tells-congress-video https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2019/sep/18/li... Blaming the hippies for climate change is absurd. When all relevant decisions were made, they were not in power. Nuclear power would not have saved us. There’s more blame to be put on the decision makers at shell than the hippies. Blaming them is a convenient scapegoat for the hard choices we need to make in the future.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

serverlessmom 5y ago

TIL: That there is a brand of milk in Germany that involves moonlit rituals? I tried looking up this information on their website and didn't see anything about it. Could you possibly link me to more information about this? I'm really curious. I do hope that someday hippies and non hippies alike find an answer for climate change and general wellness of the planet and all it's creatures.

Xylakant 5y ago
I only have a German reference. There’s multiple brands of bio products that are Demeter certified, milk, meat, cheese, … The Demeter Bio Label requires “Hornmist” and “Hornkiesel” as fertilizer as per their guidelines, see Section 7.3 (1) and (2) https://www.demeter.de/sites/default/files/richtlinien/richtlinien_gesamt.pdf https://www.demeter.de/sites/default/files/richtlinien/richt... Hornmist is dung-filled cow horns that get buried at full moon preferably, later dig out and spread: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornmist https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornmist Hornkiesel is similar, cow horns filled with ground up crystal: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornkiesel https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornkiesel It’s really vexing, because for animal welfare and general biodiversity requirements, they’re the toughest standards, but they have those magic cult-like rituals buried in there.
- AniseAbyss 5y ago
  What if I told you people are lying pieces of shit, say that they care about animal welfare in surveys and then in the supermarket buy the cheapest brand anyway?
  - igorkraw 5y ago
    I'd call you an unproductive cynic, point to the rise in eco and vegan labels that empirically provides counter evidence and move on. This perspective adds nothing but a feeling of superiority, I'd rather think about how to replace the culty brand with a secular one and figure out how to work on climate change and corporate misconduct in my small capacity
- lkozma 5y ago
  Honest question: who does it harm? These aspects that you mention may not be to your (or to my) taste, but if they are relatively harmless and the other stuff is overwhelmingly good, why not let it go?
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    Fundamentally, the ritualistic behavior harms belief in science. Doing things because we believe in magic of any kind is fostering belief in other magic - for example healing by similar magic, the roots for both go back to Rudolf Steiner.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  I believe the English term for this may be “bio-dynamic”, which is a movement similar to the organic movement but with stricter standards, and more emphasis on what farming techniques you should use (crop rotation, etc), rather than just what you shouldn’t do (e.g. use pesticides). From what I’ve seen, there seem to be a bunch of good ideas in there, along with a lot of ritual rubbish.
  - Xylakant 5y ago
    I buy one of the Demeter-certified brands of milk. It’s just the best you can buy, taste wise if you ask me. It still irks me that I have to choose between good milk from ethically raised cows and not supporting belief in magic.

yakshaving_jgt 5y ago

It's most likely true that hippies aren't the largest group of believers in magical potions from animal parts — I certainly don't have the numbers and I'm going by intuition, but there's likely also a difference between the number of people and the size of the market created by those people. Not all people have equal purchasing power. I think all else being equal, it would be unfair of me to make this characterisation, but I'm not holding these two groups of people to the same standard. I think the two groups we are talking about are people in rural China and Vietnam, and hippies in the Western world who are likely educated to a much higher standard than the rural Chinese and Vietnamese. To be clear: this is not a comment on education standards in China or Vietnam universally — I'm well aware that both countries are among the forerunners in medical science. I do think Western hippies should know better though, which is why I'm more comfortable demonising them rather than people growing up with less opportunity to benefit from a modern education. As an aside, I don't think Vietnam as neatly fits the Venn diagram I described in my original comment. I lived in Vietnam for a while, and animal welfare is less of a thing there than in most of the West. I want to be clear also that while I said that "hippies cause climate change", I don't place exclusive blame on them for it. That would be silly. I think it's important to recognise however that the holier than thou attitudes of PETA, XR, Greta Thunberg and others do not actually help alleviate any of the problems facing society, despite their best intentions. > They’re certainly wrong on a lot of things, but they’re also advocating for change that no other parties dare to yet. You're right — people and organisations aren't quite so binary. I think that's in line with the spirit of my original comment, although I worded it more antagonistically.

Xylakant 5y ago
> It's most likely true that hippies aren't the largest group of believers in magical potions from animal parts — I certainly don't have the numbers and I'm going by intuition, but there's likely also a difference between the number of people and the size of the market created by those people. Not all people have equal purchasing power. Despite the difference in purchasing power, there’s no indication that rhino horns get sold in substantial quantities in the western sphere. There’s certainly people that will purchase it, but the primary market is in Asia and Africa itself. Additionally, as with most endangered species, hunting them is only part of what endangers the population. Destruction of habitat for crops or meat, often sold to Europe and the US is a major contribution. The hippies are truly not at fault here. > I think it's important to recognise however that the holier than thou attitudes of PETA, XR, Greta Thunberg and others do not actually help alleviate any of the problems facing society, despite their best intentions. Why would you lump Greta Thunberg in there? By age alone, she’s not to blame for climate change. And what she does explicitly advocate for is in her own words: “Listen to the scientists” https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2019/sep/18/listen-to-the-scientists-greta-thunberg-tells-congress-video https://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2019/sep/18/li... Blaming the hippies for climate change is absurd. When all relevant decisions were made, they were not in power. Nuclear power would not have saved us. There’s more blame to be put on the decision makers at shell than the hippies. Blaming them is a convenient scapegoat for the hard choices we need to make in the future.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]