8 ms·

OP is almost certainly talking about Thiel, not Kurz. Thiel is a libertarian, and is ostracized by many in tech for rejecting the tenets of Bay Area progressiv

by freyr 5y ago

OP is almost certainly talking about Thiel, not Kurz. Thiel is a libertarian, and is ostracized by many in tech for rejecting the tenets of Bay Area progressivism. Kurz is not, as far as I can tell, a libertarian.

wavefunction 5y ago
I can't speak to whether he's been ostracized for rejecting the tenets of Bay Area progressivism but he has expressed extreme political stances that lead people of all kinds to question his character. For example Thiel has expressed his desire that the right of women to vote be revoked. Disenfranchising adult women's right to vote on the basis of their gender is an attack on fundamental human rights.
- kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
  It doesn't sound as if he was proposing to remove women's right to vote, according to this article (first hit in search): https://www.huffpost.com/entry/peter-thiel-women-democracy_n_5747079be4b03ede4413f6f5 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/peter-thiel-women-democracy_n... "It would be absurd to suggest that women’s votes will be taken away or that this would solve the political problems that vex us. While I don’t think any class of people should be disenfranchised, I have little hope that voting will make things better." Nevertheless it should be possible to discuss the results of giving women the right to vote. The main difference from state of affairs before that presumably being that people got to vote on things they did not have direct stakes in. Or to give a modern example: afaik more women are opposed to abortion than men, so giving women the right the vote makes it less likely that abortion is legalized. At least some people would consider that a negative outcome.
  - tartoran 5y ago
    > more women are opposed to abortion than men Source please?
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      For example here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/a...
  - JohnTHaller 5y ago
    > afaik more women are opposed to abortion than men, so giving women the right the vote makes it less likely that abortion is legalized A single Google search would tell you that's entirely wrong: https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.a...
    - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
      "Entirely Wrong" - are you looking at the same chart? According to the chart, most of the time the "entirely illegal" numbers are higher for women than for men. And that is just one poll. A single Google search also produces results like this, which claims much larger differences: https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/a... "Other polls have appeared since that article, and they show the same thing. A 2013 YouGov poll on behalf of the University of Lancaster found 26% of men supporting a reduction or ban, versus 43% of women."
      - JohnTHaller 5y ago
        According to the article I linked in a Gallup poll earlier in 2021, 81% of women support abortion (36% under all conditions, 45% under some) and 79% of men support abortion (29% under all conditions, 50% under some). 52% of women consider themselves pro-life and 5% are unsure. 45% of men consider themselves pro-life and 5% are unsure. You linked to an article from 2014 about surveys from 2011.
        kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        The numbers from the Guardian article are drastically different from the ones by Gallup, and even Gallup has women in the "lead" for most years. Mostly the very recent years in Gallup have slightly less women than men saying it should be completely illegal. So I don't think the Gallup source settles it.
- freyr 5y ago
  What he said is this: > Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron. This is not suggesting that anybody’s right to vote should be revoked. It’s pointing out that women have typically voted in opposition to libertarian/capitalist policies. And he might not like this outcome, but not liking something is not the same as saying it shouldn’t exist. I’m not a libertarian and I’m opposed to many of Thiel’s viewpoints, but we can have an honest discussion about what he has and hasn’t said.
CalChris 5y ago
Thiel appeared at the 2016 RNC in support of Trump. He re-registered as a Republican in 2016. He donates to Republicans. Thiel is a Republican. https://web.archive.org/web/20180724001522/https://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2018-29/artikel/en-hypnotische-massenphanomene-die-weltwoche-ausgabe-29-2018.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180724001522/https://www.weltw...
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  Many libertarians vote Republican.
  - skinnymuch 5y ago
    Voting is different from actively supporting candidates. Outside of lower taxes [for corporations and the wealthy primarily], there is no overlap or rational link between libertarianism and actively supporting Trump. If libertarians are actively and strongly supporting specific Republican figures like Thiel is. Politicians who have little to no objections and in fact at times expand the huge spending that is defense, general pork spending, social security, and Medicare. Politicians who don’t don’t even draw a hard line on government staying out of personal life and at times want to expand that (think forcing companies to not be allowed to have mask or vaccine rules or ruling on abortion). Thiel publicly supports these sorts of politicians. Not just quietly voting because of a weak two party system less evil situation. Then how are they libertarian? The definition doesn’t fit.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      > Voting is different from actively supporting candidates. Different things are different. You vote for a candidate because you would prefer them to win. Which is possibly included among the reasons you would support them in other ways. > Outside of lower taxes [for corporations and the wealthy primarily], there is no overlap or rational link between libertarianism and actively supporting Trump. Many libertarians support Republicans.
      - 5y ago

by freyr 5y ago

wavefunction 5y ago

I can't speak to whether he's been ostracized for rejecting the tenets of Bay Area progressivism but he has expressed extreme political stances that lead people of all kinds to question his character. For example Thiel has expressed his desire that the right of women to vote be revoked. Disenfranchising adult women's right to vote on the basis of their gender is an attack on fundamental human rights.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
It doesn't sound as if he was proposing to remove women's right to vote, according to this article (first hit in search): https://www.huffpost.com/entry/peter-thiel-women-democracy_n_5747079be4b03ede4413f6f5 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/peter-thiel-women-democracy_n... "It would be absurd to suggest that women’s votes will be taken away or that this would solve the political problems that vex us. While I don’t think any class of people should be disenfranchised, I have little hope that voting will make things better." Nevertheless it should be possible to discuss the results of giving women the right to vote. The main difference from state of affairs before that presumably being that people got to vote on things they did not have direct stakes in. Or to give a modern example: afaik more women are opposed to abortion than men, so giving women the right the vote makes it less likely that abortion is legalized. At least some people would consider that a negative outcome.
- tartoran 5y ago
  > more women are opposed to abortion than men Source please?
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    For example here: https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/a...
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  > afaik more women are opposed to abortion than men, so giving women the right the vote makes it less likely that abortion is legalized A single Google search would tell you that's entirely wrong: https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/245618/abortion-trends-gender.a...
  - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
    "Entirely Wrong" - are you looking at the same chart? According to the chart, most of the time the "entirely illegal" numbers are higher for women than for men. And that is just one poll. A single Google search also produces results like this, which claims much larger differences: https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/apr/30/why-are-women-more-opposed-to-abortion https://www.theguardian.com/science/the-lay-scientist/2014/a... "Other polls have appeared since that article, and they show the same thing. A 2013 YouGov poll on behalf of the University of Lancaster found 26% of men supporting a reduction or ban, versus 43% of women."
    - JohnTHaller 5y ago
      According to the article I linked in a Gallup poll earlier in 2021, 81% of women support abortion (36% under all conditions, 45% under some) and 79% of men support abortion (29% under all conditions, 50% under some). 52% of women consider themselves pro-life and 5% are unsure. 45% of men consider themselves pro-life and 5% are unsure. You linked to an article from 2014 about surveys from 2011.
      - kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
        The numbers from the Guardian article are drastically different from the ones by Gallup, and even Gallup has women in the "lead" for most years. Mostly the very recent years in Gallup have slightly less women than men saying it should be completely illegal. So I don't think the Gallup source settles it.
freyr 5y ago
What he said is this: > Since 1920, the vast increase in welfare beneficiaries and the extension of the franchise to women — two constituencies that are notoriously tough for libertarians — have rendered the notion of “capitalist democracy” into an oxymoron. This is not suggesting that anybody’s right to vote should be revoked. It’s pointing out that women have typically voted in opposition to libertarian/capitalist policies. And he might not like this outcome, but not liking something is not the same as saying it shouldn’t exist. I’m not a libertarian and I’m opposed to many of Thiel’s viewpoints, but we can have an honest discussion about what he has and hasn’t said.

CalChris 5y ago

Thiel appeared at the 2016 RNC in support of Trump. He re-registered as a Republican in 2016. He donates to Republicans. Thiel is a Republican. https://web.archive.org/web/20180724001522/https://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2018-29/artikel/en-hypnotische-massenphanomene-die-weltwoche-ausgabe-29-2018.html https://web.archive.org/web/20180724001522/https://www.weltw...

throwawaylinux 5y ago
Many libertarians vote Republican.
- skinnymuch 5y ago
  Voting is different from actively supporting candidates. Outside of lower taxes [for corporations and the wealthy primarily], there is no overlap or rational link between libertarianism and actively supporting Trump. If libertarians are actively and strongly supporting specific Republican figures like Thiel is. Politicians who have little to no objections and in fact at times expand the huge spending that is defense, general pork spending, social security, and Medicare. Politicians who don’t don’t even draw a hard line on government staying out of personal life and at times want to expand that (think forcing companies to not be allowed to have mask or vaccine rules or ruling on abortion). Thiel publicly supports these sorts of politicians. Not just quietly voting because of a weak two party system less evil situation. Then how are they libertarian? The definition doesn’t fit.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    > Voting is different from actively supporting candidates. Different things are different. You vote for a candidate because you would prefer them to win. Which is possibly included among the reasons you would support them in other ways. > Outside of lower taxes [for corporations and the wealthy primarily], there is no overlap or rational link between libertarianism and actively supporting Trump. Many libertarians support Republicans.
    - 5y ago