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see also: Tesla ranks almost dead last on Consumer Reports reliability list https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-1

see also: Tesla ranks almost dead last on Consumer Reports reliability list https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-last-Consumer-Reports-16632996.php https://www.sfgate.com/tech/article/Tesla-ranks-almost-dead-... https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-recommended-by-consumer-reports.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/19/tesla-model-s-no-longer-reco... I hope this doesn't come across as excessively smug but I think my life, level of stress and personal finances are measurably improved by owning something that is closer to a $9000 Toyota Corolla and spending money on regular, basic maintenance for it.

LanceJones 5y ago
They also ranks first in customer satisfaction survey -- 4 years running: https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-satisfying-cars-in-consumer-reports/ https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-s...
- tragictrash 5y ago
  - jayd16 5y ago
    "Loyal" means something different than they simply like their car? Why is it painted as somehow disqualifying?
    - tragictrash 5y ago
      100%. You can like your car, but be aware and open with the flaws. Thats me with my car. The behavior I see surrounding these cars is definately not that. I haven't really seen this with another brand of car, at least to this extent. I see it a lot with iPhones too, but that's not a car. Definitely disqualifies your statements if I know they come from a place of blind infatuation.
- lillecarl 5y ago
  [flagged]
- kube-system 5y ago
  This pattern is more of the norm than not for expensive high-tech cars. Rich people like nice stuff and are willing to pay maintenance and repair bills.
  - walrus01 5y ago
    and then later in their life they become impossible to fix at a reasonable price. somebody might sell you a mostly okay running older BMW 7 series for $4500, fully loaded with all the options but take a look at the parts and labor cost to fix something on it.... you might as well throw away the whole car.
    - ghaff 5y ago
      While I've driven them (on a track) and appreciate the attraction of the German sports luxury brands, what I've always heard is that if you want to keep them past their warranty period you need a trusted independent foreign car mechanic--and it can still get pricey. Just has never been a sufficient priority for me.
      - sonofhans 5y ago
        You’re spot on. I’ve done exactly this for the last 20 years with several old Mercedes. It only works because I have a great local independent mechanic, and I don’t mind spending $2k/year in maintenance.
        chihuahua 5y ago
        If that $2k/year gets you a car that runs fairly reliably, that's a pretty good deal compared to the depreciation of a newer car. I assume your cars are depreciated to the point where there's no further depreciation?
        sonofhans 5y ago
        Yes, the maintenance is mostly preventative, with the goal of the car being in functionally new condition. Putting the second 100,000 miles on a well-maintained, reliably luxury car is the best deal going, I think, aside from not driving at all. E.g, in 2011 paid $16,000 for a 2003 E320 wagon in perfect condition. It was $70,000 brand new, so the original depreciation is eye-watering. Since then I’ve probably put $2,000/year * 10 years into it, so less than half the depreciation. It’s still functionally new, with a fair share of small aesthetic issues. I once bought a car with negative value, in that I spent more on deferred maintenance in the first month than I paid for it. That was a magnificent vehicle, though, once I fixed it up; identical to this — https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-mercedes-benz-300sdl-14/ https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-mercedes-benz-300sdl-...
- woodruffw 5y ago
  Consumers tend to rate higher satisfactions with "luxury" goods (i.e., goods at premium prices, regardless of material quality or value) than they do with non-luxury goods. It occurs to me that that bias affects Tesla's reception as well.
  - bumby 5y ago
    I vaguely remember (or perhaps misremember) Mercedes doing a study that consumers respond less favorably to their cars when they are pierced below some threshold compared to the same cars when prices higher. There’s definitely some consumer cognitive bias effects around pricing
  - ALittleLight 5y ago
    Presumably the survey includes other luxury cars.
    - woodruffw 5y ago
      Certainly. The effect happens with all luxury items, and the report suggests that other luxury brands are similarly grouped at the top (and similarly have reported reliability issues).
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      I think Tesla would be the only all-premium vendor of significant size in the US market? And almost certainly the only one to sell a significant fraction of >100k cars.
      - whiskyant 5y ago
        The model 3 and y are on that list as well, and are closer to $50k.
        stonogo 5y ago
        Placing them just about halfway up the BMW car scale. These are luxury goods.
- ok123456 5y ago
  That's pure survivorship bias. Everyone else who encounters major problems with their Tesla gets rid of it, and therefore wouldn't choose to buy their Tesla again because they don't have it anymore. People who do have one new enough not to have a major defect will overlook small issues with the build quality and other complaints that people have about Tesla, because they've bought into a luxury and lifestyle brand. When someone else dies in a Telsa fire or dies in an autopilot accident, they convince themself it was the operator "doing it wrong" instead of an inherently defective product. When story comes out about Tesla remotely disabling functionality on a car capriciously, there has to be "more to the story" instead of it being a shocking erosion of consumer rights.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Why wouldn't that apply to every car brand?
    - walrus01 5y ago
      every other car brand doesn't have a fanatical legion of elon musk fanboys
    - ok123456 5y ago
      Then they would have ratings similar to every other car brand all things being equal. One can infer the hazard function given such a skewed distribution.
noah_buddy 5y ago
Presuming you can afford a Tesla, the virtues of thriftiness and limiting the scope of your consumption will get you much further than "FSD".
tragictrash 5y ago
ericmay 5y ago
I see this all the time but then if you want to buy a new Tesla you have to wait a year. And that is due to demand. The consumer reports reliability thing just seems like a meme at this point that doesn’t ring true for most people either in importance or reality. I can’t quite put my finger on why this meme is wrong but my intuition says it is.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Have bought several Teslas over the last 3 years (S->X->Y). Quality improves each time I’ve bought one. Lots to complain about, still wouldn’t buy from another manufacturer.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    If there is a lot to complain about, why wouldn't you want to buy something else?
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      Because the alternatives are worse. Bolt EV LG Chem battery recall, Taycan is woefully inadequate for the price point, Ford dealers are adding $10k-$30k “market adjustments” to Mach Es and $5k-$10k for F150 Lightning reservations (which is obnoxious), Teslas have the Supercharger network, frequent over the air updates, a robust battery warranty, strong resale market, etc. My Model S frunk recall appointment with a mobile tech coming to the home to perform took less than three minutes in app to schedule.
      - jonathankoren 5y ago
        That’s funny. I’d buy a Taycan but never a Model S.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        5y ago
donarb 5y ago
Instead of Consumer Reports, how about JD Power? Every car company that brags about ratings quotes their JD Power rating first and foremost. Tesla is 30 out of 33 on JD Power.
- couchand 5y ago
  Yes, the third party we should use to evaluate is definitely the one the manufacturer wants you to pay attention to.
dqv 5y ago
If I see my bestie in a Tessie, I will be happy for them, but much like you I'm OK with a more conservative choice until something like the Tesla EV's becomes the conservative choice.
- wumpus 5y ago
  If you want a more conservative BEV choice, buy a Bolt.
  - dqv 5y ago
    I've looked at it, but I have a good decade.5 on my current car so it will be one of those things I check on in the future.
    - wumpus 5y ago
      The joke is that GM had to recall 100% of them to replace their batteries because of a fire hazard.
Tade0 5y ago
I see Tesla as more of a lighter under the incumbents' collective ass than a car manufacturer, but nevertheless I think I'll eventually get one, because they're still ahead of the competition and I don't actually need a daily driver anymore.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
heavyset_go 5y ago
> I hope this doesn't come across as excessively smug but I think my life, level of stress and personal finances are measurably improved by owning something that is closer to a $9000 Toyota Corolla and spending money on regular, basic maintenance for it. Agreed. My criteria for a car now is that it has to have a large aftermarket for parts, and it needs to be serviceable by pretty much any mechanic. Corollas and similar cars fit that bill perfectly.
- protomyth 5y ago
  Corollas are easy to get parts. My next auto purchase will be in the next two years, and I will be checking with availability of parts at third-party part stores. If you do this, do it for a specific model and don't assume that one manufacturer is better than another or has even availability on every model. Kia Rio has parts available, and the Kia Niro needs everything ordered. Also, checking what people who do aftermarket modifications are driving isn't such a bad idea. Also, watch some youtube videos of common maintenance and repair scenarios. Even if you won't be doing the repairs, knowing the difficulty level and parts required might give you some insight into how good the vehicle is long term.
panick21_ 5y ago
The value of those rankings is very low, the methodology is flawed. And doesn't accurately reflect the relative inconvenience of flaws. Tesla for EV have had pretty amazing success in terms of battery and drive train reliability. If you are going to consider a Corolla, you were not the target audience in the first place and even if Tesla was literally the best company in terms of reliability it wouldn't make you a potential costumer either.
- tibyat 5y ago
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Given that you can order the exact same car three times in a year and get three different configurations including missing components, that's not a surprise.
YZF 5y ago
Following the CNBC link also says: "but Consumer Reports put the Model 3 in the middle of the pack and still recommends it." I'm also wondering what's the relative ranking vs. other BEVs and whether or not the ranking is weighted by some of the earlier production vehicles that had more issues. I've had endless issues with ICE cars. Never owned a Toyota. But did own a Dodge, an Audi, a Subaru, all of which had lots of problems, some of them resulting in getting stuck and needing to get towed, the last one was ~1500km from home in the middle of nowhere with the Subaru and a seized engine which is when I decided to get the Tesla. Maybe just my luck. I think I feel less stress in my Model 3 which so far hasn't let me down. But ask me again in 10 years. No oil changes. No stinking gas stations. $$-wise I think I agree. But if the Model 3 cost $9k I think we both know which one you'd get...
- wumpus 5y ago
  My 3rd Subaru had 2 head gasket replacements under warranty, and needed a 3rd when I sold it to buy a Tesla. It's as if everyone makes decisions based on their personal experiences. I know I do. (It was a design flaw that was unusual for Subaru -- but there's no excuse for Subaru not fixing the part after it was shown to be unreliable.)

LanceJones 5y ago

They also ranks first in customer satisfaction survey -- 4 years running: https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-satisfying-cars-in-consumer-reports/ https://thedriven.io/2021/11/15/tesla-dominate-top-10-most-s...

tragictrash 5y ago
- jayd16 5y ago
  "Loyal" means something different than they simply like their car? Why is it painted as somehow disqualifying?
  - tragictrash 5y ago
    100%. You can like your car, but be aware and open with the flaws. Thats me with my car. The behavior I see surrounding these cars is definately not that. I haven't really seen this with another brand of car, at least to this extent. I see it a lot with iPhones too, but that's not a car. Definitely disqualifies your statements if I know they come from a place of blind infatuation.
lillecarl 5y ago
[flagged]
kube-system 5y ago
This pattern is more of the norm than not for expensive high-tech cars. Rich people like nice stuff and are willing to pay maintenance and repair bills.
- walrus01 5y ago
  and then later in their life they become impossible to fix at a reasonable price. somebody might sell you a mostly okay running older BMW 7 series for $4500, fully loaded with all the options but take a look at the parts and labor cost to fix something on it.... you might as well throw away the whole car.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    While I've driven them (on a track) and appreciate the attraction of the German sports luxury brands, what I've always heard is that if you want to keep them past their warranty period you need a trusted independent foreign car mechanic--and it can still get pricey. Just has never been a sufficient priority for me.
    - sonofhans 5y ago
      You’re spot on. I’ve done exactly this for the last 20 years with several old Mercedes. It only works because I have a great local independent mechanic, and I don’t mind spending $2k/year in maintenance.
      - chihuahua 5y ago
        If that $2k/year gets you a car that runs fairly reliably, that's a pretty good deal compared to the depreciation of a newer car. I assume your cars are depreciated to the point where there's no further depreciation?
        sonofhans 5y ago
        Yes, the maintenance is mostly preventative, with the goal of the car being in functionally new condition. Putting the second 100,000 miles on a well-maintained, reliably luxury car is the best deal going, I think, aside from not driving at all. E.g, in 2011 paid $16,000 for a 2003 E320 wagon in perfect condition. It was $70,000 brand new, so the original depreciation is eye-watering. Since then I’ve probably put $2,000/year * 10 years into it, so less than half the depreciation. It’s still functionally new, with a fair share of small aesthetic issues. I once bought a car with negative value, in that I spent more on deferred maintenance in the first month than I paid for it. That was a magnificent vehicle, though, once I fixed it up; identical to this — https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-mercedes-benz-300sdl-14/ https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-mercedes-benz-300sdl-...
woodruffw 5y ago
Consumers tend to rate higher satisfactions with "luxury" goods (i.e., goods at premium prices, regardless of material quality or value) than they do with non-luxury goods. It occurs to me that that bias affects Tesla's reception as well.
- bumby 5y ago
  I vaguely remember (or perhaps misremember) Mercedes doing a study that consumers respond less favorably to their cars when they are pierced below some threshold compared to the same cars when prices higher. There’s definitely some consumer cognitive bias effects around pricing
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  Presumably the survey includes other luxury cars.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    Certainly. The effect happens with all luxury items, and the report suggests that other luxury brands are similarly grouped at the top (and similarly have reported reliability issues).
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    I think Tesla would be the only all-premium vendor of significant size in the US market? And almost certainly the only one to sell a significant fraction of >100k cars.
    - whiskyant 5y ago
      The model 3 and y are on that list as well, and are closer to $50k.
      - stonogo 5y ago
        Placing them just about halfway up the BMW car scale. These are luxury goods.
ok123456 5y ago
That's pure survivorship bias. Everyone else who encounters major problems with their Tesla gets rid of it, and therefore wouldn't choose to buy their Tesla again because they don't have it anymore. People who do have one new enough not to have a major defect will overlook small issues with the build quality and other complaints that people have about Tesla, because they've bought into a luxury and lifestyle brand. When someone else dies in a Telsa fire or dies in an autopilot accident, they convince themself it was the operator "doing it wrong" instead of an inherently defective product. When story comes out about Tesla remotely disabling functionality on a car capriciously, there has to be "more to the story" instead of it being a shocking erosion of consumer rights.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Why wouldn't that apply to every car brand?
  - walrus01 5y ago
    every other car brand doesn't have a fanatical legion of elon musk fanboys
  - ok123456 5y ago
    Then they would have ratings similar to every other car brand all things being equal. One can infer the hazard function given such a skewed distribution.

noah_buddy 5y ago

Presuming you can afford a Tesla, the virtues of thriftiness and limiting the scope of your consumption will get you much further than "FSD".

tragictrash 5y ago

ericmay 5y ago

I see this all the time but then if you want to buy a new Tesla you have to wait a year. And that is due to demand. The consumer reports reliability thing just seems like a meme at this point that doesn’t ring true for most people either in importance or reality. I can’t quite put my finger on why this meme is wrong but my intuition says it is.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
Have bought several Teslas over the last 3 years (S->X->Y). Quality improves each time I’ve bought one. Lots to complain about, still wouldn’t buy from another manufacturer.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  If there is a lot to complain about, why wouldn't you want to buy something else?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Because the alternatives are worse. Bolt EV LG Chem battery recall, Taycan is woefully inadequate for the price point, Ford dealers are adding $10k-$30k “market adjustments” to Mach Es and $5k-$10k for F150 Lightning reservations (which is obnoxious), Teslas have the Supercharger network, frequent over the air updates, a robust battery warranty, strong resale market, etc. My Model S frunk recall appointment with a mobile tech coming to the home to perform took less than three minutes in app to schedule.
    - jonathankoren 5y ago
      That’s funny. I’d buy a Taycan but never a Model S.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - 5y ago

donarb 5y ago

Instead of Consumer Reports, how about JD Power? Every car company that brags about ratings quotes their JD Power rating first and foremost. Tesla is 30 out of 33 on JD Power.

couchand 5y ago
Yes, the third party we should use to evaluate is definitely the one the manufacturer wants you to pay attention to.

dqv 5y ago

If I see my bestie in a Tessie, I will be happy for them, but much like you I'm OK with a more conservative choice until something like the Tesla EV's becomes the conservative choice.

wumpus 5y ago
If you want a more conservative BEV choice, buy a Bolt.
- dqv 5y ago
  I've looked at it, but I have a good decade.5 on my current car so it will be one of those things I check on in the future.
  - wumpus 5y ago
    The joke is that GM had to recall 100% of them to replace their batteries because of a fire hazard.

Tade0 5y ago

I see Tesla as more of a lighter under the incumbents' collective ass than a car manufacturer, but nevertheless I think I'll eventually get one, because they're still ahead of the competition and I don't actually need a daily driver anymore.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

heavyset_go 5y ago

> I hope this doesn't come across as excessively smug but I think my life, level of stress and personal finances are measurably improved by owning something that is closer to a $9000 Toyota Corolla and spending money on regular, basic maintenance for it. Agreed. My criteria for a car now is that it has to have a large aftermarket for parts, and it needs to be serviceable by pretty much any mechanic. Corollas and similar cars fit that bill perfectly.

protomyth 5y ago
Corollas are easy to get parts. My next auto purchase will be in the next two years, and I will be checking with availability of parts at third-party part stores. If you do this, do it for a specific model and don't assume that one manufacturer is better than another or has even availability on every model. Kia Rio has parts available, and the Kia Niro needs everything ordered. Also, checking what people who do aftermarket modifications are driving isn't such a bad idea. Also, watch some youtube videos of common maintenance and repair scenarios. Even if you won't be doing the repairs, knowing the difficulty level and parts required might give you some insight into how good the vehicle is long term.

panick21_ 5y ago

The value of those rankings is very low, the methodology is flawed. And doesn't accurately reflect the relative inconvenience of flaws. Tesla for EV have had pretty amazing success in terms of battery and drive train reliability. If you are going to consider a Corolla, you were not the target audience in the first place and even if Tesla was literally the best company in terms of reliability it wouldn't make you a potential costumer either.

tibyat 5y ago

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Given that you can order the exact same car three times in a year and get three different configurations including missing components, that's not a surprise.

YZF 5y ago

Following the CNBC link also says: "but Consumer Reports put the Model 3 in the middle of the pack and still recommends it." I'm also wondering what's the relative ranking vs. other BEVs and whether or not the ranking is weighted by some of the earlier production vehicles that had more issues. I've had endless issues with ICE cars. Never owned a Toyota. But did own a Dodge, an Audi, a Subaru, all of which had lots of problems, some of them resulting in getting stuck and needing to get towed, the last one was ~1500km from home in the middle of nowhere with the Subaru and a seized engine which is when I decided to get the Tesla. Maybe just my luck. I think I feel less stress in my Model 3 which so far hasn't let me down. But ask me again in 10 years. No oil changes. No stinking gas stations. $$-wise I think I agree. But if the Model 3 cost $9k I think we both know which one you'd get...

wumpus 5y ago
My 3rd Subaru had 2 head gasket replacements under warranty, and needed a 3rd when I sold it to buy a Tesla. It's as if everyone makes decisions based on their personal experiences. I know I do. (It was a design flaw that was unusual for Subaru -- but there's no excuse for Subaru not fixing the part after it was shown to be unreliable.)