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I don't think that's how the world works. Just because you hate Apple, doesn't make it any different. I have a friend who runs a B2B sales company, by selling t

I don't think that's how the world works. Just because you hate Apple, doesn't make it any different. I have a friend who runs a B2B sales company, by selling things like pencils and cups with logos on them, and he frequently communicates with a wide variety of factories who make those things, and in none of the factories does he have any control over how they do work, or what process they follow. But according to your logic, he should? And not only _should_, but it's his *responsibility*? Or do you just make this argument selectively based on how much money the company has who hires a factory? Because then again, you just hate Apple.

seoaeu 5y ago
Apple is the most valuable public company in the world. They have plenty of leverage to force their suppliers to treat workers better. Apple just chooses not to use it to the degree they could. It is laughable to compare the market power of an enormous multinational that frequently buys out factories' entire production capacity, to some random middleman who sells branded cups and pencils.
vanusa 5y ago
I don't hate Apple. I just don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable to universally accepted principles of basic human decency.
- zepto 5y ago
  They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    That doesn't mean these standards are sufficient.
  - fivea 5y ago
    > They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors. Are they, though? I don't see people claiming that "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" is totally fine if the plant makes Samsung or off-brand smartphones. What I'm seeing is a luxury brand on the defensive because their customer base learned that the workers making Apple's luxury products not only have been enduring "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" but also tainted food that causes mass health issues. What really boggles the mind is that these sub-human working conditions seem to cause downtime in their plants, which ultimately means it costs them money. But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings.
    - zepto 5y ago
      > But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings. As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. The problem is that inspections are often faked.
      - fivea 5y ago
        > As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. That makes no sense. I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees. And also, are you really trying to argue that Apple is able to verify and guarantee that their luxury consumer electronics products leave the plant meeting tight quality control requirements but somehow it's impossible to ensure that the same employees who met those quality control specs will have worm-free meals?
        zepto 5y ago
        > I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees. All the factory has to do is clean things up for the inspection and make sure the employees know they’ll be fired for speaking up. Also, consider that these conditions existed in only some of the dormitories. To find them they would have needed to inspect them all.
quitit 5y ago
As someone that has worked with Chinese production enough to for it to give me grey (each order in the many-millions of pieces) - the factories do this behind the backs of the company and they're pretty good at evading detection, and yes they know it's wrong. For example any scheduled inspection by Apple would be met with a safe and well running facility - and the moment they leave it all returns back to normal. Apple, like other companies, do random inspections - and that's when you find all of the infractions, but these companies are pretty clued in to when a random inspection might occur since there are telltale signs for that (the factories will also pay off anyone they need in order to get advance notice, e.g drivers, airport staff, hotels you name it.) So it's a constant battle of trying to uncover and rectify the supplier problems. As a simple anecdote for the production staff to have normal working hours we would need to pay them as if they worked an 18 hour day on the requirement that they used the rest of the day for rest and leisure - because otherwise they'd just go to other factories to get in additional hours. The workers are not there for a good time, they're there for the cash. Despite the Apple hate on HN (HN has a big thing for double-standards), Apple do a very good job about this and unlike many companies Apple publish their own dirty laundry in their supplier responsibility report. As someone rightly noted earlier: You hear about the Apple ones, you barely hear anything from non-American companies, but let me assure you - their conditions are far worse and in many cases simply dangerous and not suitable for humans.1 1. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electronics-apologises-over-factory-worker-cancer-cases https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electro...
- themaninthedark 5y ago
  If you can not trust your suppliers then why do you continue to do business with them? How many times has Foxconn been in the news for the same sort of issues? Is Apple not aware of that? Is Apple unable to find a supplier who can meet their needs? You say that Apple does a good job, they publish reports and so on. I say bullshit. Apple accepts the status quo and does the bare minimum to make people think they care. Same as Nike and everyone else. Sure, you don't get the same reports from some companies. That just means that they are not trying to blow as much smoke up your ass. If Apple or anyone else was serious about doing something they would. In 2007, the tech press was all aglow with the wonder that Apple could command a production change a month before shipping https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-overseas-manufacturing/ https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-ove... Now poor Apple is helpless and at the mercy of their suppliers? You want to hear a solution? Apple, Microsoft, Samsung and who ever start a joint venture assembly. They choose and hire the management. They have representatives at the factory. The reason they do not is because they do not want to pay what it costs to be done right. If they wanted to, they could. They are smart and powerful people, any excuses are just bullshit.
5350-uiop-1130 5y ago
Doesn't Apple choose these companies based on lowering cost and having leverage over them. So does that leverage and squeezing not ultimately impact these laborer's at the bottom of the food chain Is Apple, like all companies that outsource ultimately aware of this but sees it as necessary to their profit margin, Yes. Would any other company in Apple's position do the same, almost certainly.

seoaeu 5y ago

Apple is the most valuable public company in the world. They have plenty of leverage to force their suppliers to treat workers better. Apple just chooses not to use it to the degree they could. It is laughable to compare the market power of an enormous multinational that frequently buys out factories' entire production capacity, to some random middleman who sells branded cups and pencils.

vanusa 5y ago

I don't hate Apple. I just don't see why they shouldn't be held accountable to universally accepted principles of basic human decency.

zepto 5y ago
They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors.
- vanusa 5y ago
  That doesn't mean these standards are sufficient.
- fivea 5y ago
  > They are. They are held to higher standards than any of their conpetitors. Are they, though? I don't see people claiming that "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" is totally fine if the plant makes Samsung or off-brand smartphones. What I'm seeing is a luxury brand on the defensive because their customer base learned that the workers making Apple's luxury products not only have been enduring "crowded dorms without flush toilets and food sometimes crawling with worms" but also tainted food that causes mass health issues. What really boggles the mind is that these sub-human working conditions seem to cause downtime in their plants, which ultimately means it costs them money. But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > But somehow even that is not enough to convince them to treat workers as if they are human beings. As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. The problem is that inspections are often faked.
    - fivea 5y ago
      > As has been said many times in this thread. It’s not Apple’s factory. Apple does have much higher standards than this, and has a program of enforcement. That makes no sense. I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees. And also, are you really trying to argue that Apple is able to verify and guarantee that their luxury consumer electronics products leave the plant meeting tight quality control requirements but somehow it's impossible to ensure that the same employees who met those quality control specs will have worm-free meals?
      - zepto 5y ago
        > I mean, all you need to do to check if the factory subjects workers to subhuman conditions is send someone from Apple there, look around, and ask a few questions to random employees. All the factory has to do is clean things up for the inspection and make sure the employees know they’ll be fired for speaking up. Also, consider that these conditions existed in only some of the dormitories. To find them they would have needed to inspect them all.

quitit 5y ago

As someone that has worked with Chinese production enough to for it to give me grey (each order in the many-millions of pieces) - the factories do this behind the backs of the company and they're pretty good at evading detection, and yes they know it's wrong. For example any scheduled inspection by Apple would be met with a safe and well running facility - and the moment they leave it all returns back to normal. Apple, like other companies, do random inspections - and that's when you find all of the infractions, but these companies are pretty clued in to when a random inspection might occur since there are telltale signs for that (the factories will also pay off anyone they need in order to get advance notice, e.g drivers, airport staff, hotels you name it.) So it's a constant battle of trying to uncover and rectify the supplier problems. As a simple anecdote for the production staff to have normal working hours we would need to pay them as if they worked an 18 hour day on the requirement that they used the rest of the day for rest and leisure - because otherwise they'd just go to other factories to get in additional hours. The workers are not there for a good time, they're there for the cash. Despite the Apple hate on HN (HN has a big thing for double-standards), Apple do a very good job about this and unlike many companies Apple publish their own dirty laundry in their supplier responsibility report. As someone rightly noted earlier: You hear about the Apple ones, you barely hear anything from non-American companies, but let me assure you - their conditions are far worse and in many cases simply dangerous and not suitable for humans.1 1. https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electronics-apologises-over-factory-worker-cancer-cases https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2018/11/23/samsung-electro...

themaninthedark 5y ago
If you can not trust your suppliers then why do you continue to do business with them? How many times has Foxconn been in the news for the same sort of issues? Is Apple not aware of that? Is Apple unable to find a supplier who can meet their needs? You say that Apple does a good job, they publish reports and so on. I say bullshit. Apple accepts the status quo and does the bare minimum to make people think they care. Same as Nike and everyone else. Sure, you don't get the same reports from some companies. That just means that they are not trying to blow as much smoke up your ass. If Apple or anyone else was serious about doing something they would. In 2007, the tech press was all aglow with the wonder that Apple could command a production change a month before shipping https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-overseas-manufacturing/ https://www.cnet.com/news/a-tale-of-apple-the-iphone-and-ove... Now poor Apple is helpless and at the mercy of their suppliers? You want to hear a solution? Apple, Microsoft, Samsung and who ever start a joint venture assembly. They choose and hire the management. They have representatives at the factory. The reason they do not is because they do not want to pay what it costs to be done right. If they wanted to, they could. They are smart and powerful people, any excuses are just bullshit.

5350-uiop-1130 5y ago

Doesn't Apple choose these companies based on lowering cost and having leverage over them. So does that leverage and squeezing not ultimately impact these laborer's at the bottom of the food chain Is Apple, like all companies that outsource ultimately aware of this but sees it as necessary to their profit margin, Yes. Would any other company in Apple's position do the same, almost certainly.