4 ms·

Eh, it goes both ways. Plenty of sail boat operators that do not realize when operating under power they are now a power boat, regardless of sails deployed, and

by brk 5y ago

Eh, it goes both ways. Plenty of sail boat operators that do not realize when operating under power they are now a power boat, regardless of sails deployed, and must abide by "power boat" rules, which among other things means they no longer have the same default "right of way" considerations (it's more complex, but this is an adequate simplification for this thread). The result of this is often asshole-ish behavior on the part of the sail boat captain.

tlb 5y ago
Does it create a problem that other boats can't tell which rules a motor/sail boat are operating under? In other driving rule systems, it's important that everyone can predict everyone else's proper behavior.
- walrus01 5y ago
  If a sailboat is moving under power it should be visually obvious that all sails are down, furled, etc.
  - brk 5y ago
    However they can be moving under sail AND power simultaneously. It's not uncommon.
    - chrisweekly 5y ago
      Sure -- in which case (motorsailing) they'll still be moving at a fraction of the speed and maneuverability of a regular powerboat. Your arguments about right of way are not just pedantic, they're specious. The ratio of at-fault collisions between sail and powerboats blamed on the former approaches zero. FTR I've owned and captained boats of both types in New England for over 25 years.
      - brk 5y ago
        FTR I've owned and captained boats on the Great Lakes, New England, and now in Florida for about 30 years. My experience differs from yours.
        renewiltord 5y ago
        Is there a CA SWITRS-analogue for boat incidents? I'd like to just do the stats myself, if available.
        Gwypaas 5y ago
        No idea for the US. In the maritime industry the US likes to be the odd one out. The US coast guard likely have something all on their own. Looking globally at larger vessels, which would be like the ones in the article here, you have IMO GISIS Incidents[0]. Quite the awful application to use and scrape. Trying to get ship particulars I got limited after 100-200 vessels. For Europe you have EMCIP [1]. More info, a bit better interface. Horrible format to do anything with. Otherwise you have commercial data providers which tend to both contain incidents, vessels and pretty much everything about the maritime industry. Examples are Clarksons Fleet Register [2] and IHS Markit [3]. I may or may not have written a thesis a while back touching this kind of data. [0]: IMO GISIS https://gisis.imo.org/Public/Default.aspx https://gisis.imo.org/Public/Default.aspx [1]: EMCIP https://portal.emsa.europa.eu/web/emcip https://portal.emsa.europa.eu/web/emcip [2]: Clarksons Fleet Register https://www.clarksons.net/wfr/ https://www.clarksons.net/wfr/ [3]: IHS Markit https://ihsmarkit.com/products/sea-web-maritime-reference.html https://ihsmarkit.com/products/sea-web-maritime-reference.ht...
        renewiltord 5y ago
        Terrific comment. Much appreciated.
    - Gwypaas 5y ago
      Then it should display a downward pointed cone as a daytime signal and regular power vessel lanterns in the dark.
  - tlb 5y ago
    GP seems to claim that, with sails spread AND motor running, it has to follow power boat rules despite looking the same as when it's just sailing.
    - i_am_proteus 5y ago
      The claim is correct. COLREGS are not ambiguous about this. >The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used See pp6-7 (PDF 14-15) https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf
- oh_my_goodness 5y ago
  Big power boats go where they go. They may or may not even be looking in the direction they're moving.
- brk 5y ago
  It can be problematic, yes. If two vessels are approaching each other on a collision course, one is generally considered the give-way vessel, and the other is the stand-on vessel. As the names imply, one is supposed to alter course to avoid a collision, and the other is supposed to maintain course (eg: specifically NOT alter course) so that the other vessel can adjust accordingly. Without getting overly complicated here, there is a whole structure to it, and it generally comes down to a combination of the locations of the vessels relative to each other (if another vessel is in a zone that roughly correlates to and area from straight-ahead/noon to 4 o'clock on YOUR boat then YOU are the give-way vessle) with precedence to the vessel with the least amount of maneuverability. The maneuverability bit is not granular like "your boat is smaller than mine and more easily steered" but more like "your boat is a tanker or a barge and maneuverability is measured in miles, not meters". So, a sailboat under wind power exclusively is less maneuverable than a power boat, but more maneuverable than a freighter. However sailboaters often seem to interpret this as "if my sails are up all other boats MUST give-way me to me", which is definitely incorrect.
- jore 5y ago
  My instructor told me that the size is what matters often in real life. He was sailing a 45 foot yacht from Europe to South America (ARC race) and in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean they were very close to hitting a huge tanker. They were with sails at night, but the tanker was not willing to change course for such a small boat so around 50m before the impact the sailing boat changes course. All the time they were on the radio talking with the captain of the tanker, but they could not persuade him to change course. And for them this is a race so they always wanted to follow the optimal course, therefore they were reluctant to change their course
  - MerelyMortal 5y ago
    Instead of arguing, they should have used that time to make a slight adjustment. Their hubris caused them to make a last-minute change which wasted significantly more time. Races of any type are almost always subject to external factors.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    He may simply not be able to change course. An oil tanker at speed plots its course radii in miles, whole ones. Those things don't turn on a dime and as a pleasure boat (sailing in a race is entertainment) claiming priority over such a huge commercial vessel is just plain arrogance.
- Someone 5y ago
  A sailboat under power with sails up should fly an inverted black cone (“steaming cone”, “motoring cone”). There’s rules for lighting at night, too. I wouldn’t know how often sailboats adhere to these rules.
  - Gwypaas 5y ago
    Depends on enforcement. We tend to hoist ours when getting to Germany because both the police and coast guard actually care and will fine you in typical German fashion. Otherwise, pretty much never.

by brk 5y ago

tlb 5y ago

Does it create a problem that other boats can't tell which rules a motor/sail boat are operating under? In other driving rule systems, it's important that everyone can predict everyone else's proper behavior.

walrus01 5y ago
If a sailboat is moving under power it should be visually obvious that all sails are down, furled, etc.
- brk 5y ago
  However they can be moving under sail AND power simultaneously. It's not uncommon.
  - chrisweekly 5y ago
    Sure -- in which case (motorsailing) they'll still be moving at a fraction of the speed and maneuverability of a regular powerboat. Your arguments about right of way are not just pedantic, they're specious. The ratio of at-fault collisions between sail and powerboats blamed on the former approaches zero. FTR I've owned and captained boats of both types in New England for over 25 years.
    - brk 5y ago
      FTR I've owned and captained boats on the Great Lakes, New England, and now in Florida for about 30 years. My experience differs from yours.
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        Is there a CA SWITRS-analogue for boat incidents? I'd like to just do the stats myself, if available.
        Gwypaas 5y ago
        No idea for the US. In the maritime industry the US likes to be the odd one out. The US coast guard likely have something all on their own. Looking globally at larger vessels, which would be like the ones in the article here, you have IMO GISIS Incidents[0]. Quite the awful application to use and scrape. Trying to get ship particulars I got limited after 100-200 vessels. For Europe you have EMCIP [1]. More info, a bit better interface. Horrible format to do anything with. Otherwise you have commercial data providers which tend to both contain incidents, vessels and pretty much everything about the maritime industry. Examples are Clarksons Fleet Register [2] and IHS Markit [3]. I may or may not have written a thesis a while back touching this kind of data. [0]: IMO GISIS https://gisis.imo.org/Public/Default.aspx https://gisis.imo.org/Public/Default.aspx [1]: EMCIP https://portal.emsa.europa.eu/web/emcip https://portal.emsa.europa.eu/web/emcip [2]: Clarksons Fleet Register https://www.clarksons.net/wfr/ https://www.clarksons.net/wfr/ [3]: IHS Markit https://ihsmarkit.com/products/sea-web-maritime-reference.html https://ihsmarkit.com/products/sea-web-maritime-reference.ht...
        renewiltord 5y ago
        Terrific comment. Much appreciated.
  - Gwypaas 5y ago
    Then it should display a downward pointed cone as a daytime signal and regular power vessel lanterns in the dark.
- tlb 5y ago
  GP seems to claim that, with sails spread AND motor running, it has to follow power boat rules despite looking the same as when it's just sailing.
  - i_am_proteus 5y ago
    The claim is correct. COLREGS are not ambiguous about this. >The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used See pp6-7 (PDF 14-15) https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf
oh_my_goodness 5y ago
Big power boats go where they go. They may or may not even be looking in the direction they're moving.
brk 5y ago
It can be problematic, yes. If two vessels are approaching each other on a collision course, one is generally considered the give-way vessel, and the other is the stand-on vessel. As the names imply, one is supposed to alter course to avoid a collision, and the other is supposed to maintain course (eg: specifically NOT alter course) so that the other vessel can adjust accordingly. Without getting overly complicated here, there is a whole structure to it, and it generally comes down to a combination of the locations of the vessels relative to each other (if another vessel is in a zone that roughly correlates to and area from straight-ahead/noon to 4 o'clock on YOUR boat then YOU are the give-way vessle) with precedence to the vessel with the least amount of maneuverability. The maneuverability bit is not granular like "your boat is smaller than mine and more easily steered" but more like "your boat is a tanker or a barge and maneuverability is measured in miles, not meters". So, a sailboat under wind power exclusively is less maneuverable than a power boat, but more maneuverable than a freighter. However sailboaters often seem to interpret this as "if my sails are up all other boats MUST give-way me to me", which is definitely incorrect.
jore 5y ago
My instructor told me that the size is what matters often in real life. He was sailing a 45 foot yacht from Europe to South America (ARC race) and in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean they were very close to hitting a huge tanker. They were with sails at night, but the tanker was not willing to change course for such a small boat so around 50m before the impact the sailing boat changes course. All the time they were on the radio talking with the captain of the tanker, but they could not persuade him to change course. And for them this is a race so they always wanted to follow the optimal course, therefore they were reluctant to change their course
- MerelyMortal 5y ago
  Instead of arguing, they should have used that time to make a slight adjustment. Their hubris caused them to make a last-minute change which wasted significantly more time. Races of any type are almost always subject to external factors.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  He may simply not be able to change course. An oil tanker at speed plots its course radii in miles, whole ones. Those things don't turn on a dime and as a pleasure boat (sailing in a race is entertainment) claiming priority over such a huge commercial vessel is just plain arrogance.
Someone 5y ago
A sailboat under power with sails up should fly an inverted black cone (“steaming cone”, “motoring cone”). There’s rules for lighting at night, too. I wouldn’t know how often sailboats adhere to these rules.
- Gwypaas 5y ago
  Depends on enforcement. We tend to hoist ours when getting to Germany because both the police and coast guard actually care and will fine you in typical German fashion. Otherwise, pretty much never.