4 ms·

> larger proportion of the part that disappears every year becomes better off than worse off I would hardly disagree with that statement. Larger portion of th

by pojzon 5y ago

> larger proportion of the part that disappears every year becomes better off than worse off I would hardly disagree with that statement. Larger portion of the middle class gets downgraded not upgraded. Some parts of their life get better due to advancements we make in science, but all other aspects are worse and worse. An example can be “property ownership” - the amount of ppl that own property and are part of the middle class is decreasing year over year in developed countries. We are slowly getting to the point where we can consider our grandparents or parents as millionairs in current standards. Global inflation slowly kills middle class and no - ppl are not having it better in aspects that actually matter in long term. We are at crisis now.

sershe 5y ago
There are actually numbers for this (that I'm sadly to lazy to look up on my phone), taking fixed inflation adjusted income thresholds, more people are moving into higher than lower brackets out of the shrinking middle, especially if you consider the starting sizes of these groups.
- pojzon 5y ago
  That might be true for developing countries like China but for sure its not the case in Europe and US. China by itself can skew global average by a huge margin due to sheer amount of ppl living there. But even in China market observes middle class crisis - slowing down or ppl getting back to lower class.
  - sershe 5y ago
    I wasn't even thinking about the global level, that's on another level of middle class becoming larger and richer :) Some US data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-american-middle-class-is-stable-in-size-but-losing-ground-financially-to-upper-income-families/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-america... (long term, not the headline) https://www.cato.org/blog/middle-class-shrinking-households-become-richer https://www.cato.org/blog/middle-class-shrinking-households-...
    - pojzon 5y ago
      The data you show is for up to 2016. More recent market info shows that middle-class property ownership which was once required to be considered as part of middle-class (definition was changed) is rapidly decreasing making it almost impossible to get from lower-class to middle-class and overall removing pretty big percent of people that are currently (by income) put into middle-class (but would not be if we used old definition). https://www.rismedia.com/2019/09/03/is-middle-class-homeownership-becoming-unsustainable-and-inaccessible/ https://www.rismedia.com/2019/09/03/is-middle-class-homeowne... It doesnt matter how much money you make, if that money cannot buy you a shelter. You might disagree but next years are only going to make that crisis worse and worse. And more and more families will be not able to sustain the level of life our parents had - even whwn working 5 times as hard.
      - sershe 5y ago
        The 2nd link has later data. Housing is an arbitrary metric (home ownership is only one aspect of class; it's very us specific - renting is far more normalized in other places; there may be unrelated shifts towards renting, e.g. for millennials supposedly leaving suburbs for the cities), and even with that the article doesn't even quantity a problem - it just points at some expensive cities, and some potential issues, while showing median income is still easily enough to buy a median house, etc. There's no metric according to which middle class is becoming poorer over any reasonable term in it. And any very recent change was probably caused by pandemic and reaction to it, not a part of some trend.. to revert it, we should stop doing what we were doing for the past year or two :) Btw iirc price to income ratio in the us is also one of the lowest in developed countries, or on par. Long term, I think the thinning middle class narrative is closer to being merely humanities grads complaining that they cannot afford to live in NYC and SF, than to any real issue ;)
        pojzon 5y ago
        How can middle class not become poorer if inflation alone is making us able to buy less stuff that matters. How can you say my grandpa that was able to afford a big house and feed 5 children working alone as grandma was taking care pf the house - was not living in better financial condition than me who makes 3 times as much money as he did but I cannot afford half of what he could… The current definition of the middle class is constantly changing based on income only - which makes no sense. It should be calculated towards buying power you have. And buying power over the years for ppl like me and younger only decreases. Thus -> middle class crisis is going to hit the fan like really soon. It already did in China and its going to hit US too.

by pojzon 5y ago

sershe 5y ago

There are actually numbers for this (that I'm sadly to lazy to look up on my phone), taking fixed inflation adjusted income thresholds, more people are moving into higher than lower brackets out of the shrinking middle, especially if you consider the starting sizes of these groups.

pojzon 5y ago
That might be true for developing countries like China but for sure its not the case in Europe and US. China by itself can skew global average by a huge margin due to sheer amount of ppl living there. But even in China market observes middle class crisis - slowing down or ppl getting back to lower class.
- sershe 5y ago
  I wasn't even thinking about the global level, that's on another level of middle class becoming larger and richer :) Some US data: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-american-middle-class-is-stable-in-size-but-losing-ground-financially-to-upper-income-families/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/06/the-america... (long term, not the headline) https://www.cato.org/blog/middle-class-shrinking-households-become-richer https://www.cato.org/blog/middle-class-shrinking-households-...
  - pojzon 5y ago
    The data you show is for up to 2016. More recent market info shows that middle-class property ownership which was once required to be considered as part of middle-class (definition was changed) is rapidly decreasing making it almost impossible to get from lower-class to middle-class and overall removing pretty big percent of people that are currently (by income) put into middle-class (but would not be if we used old definition). https://www.rismedia.com/2019/09/03/is-middle-class-homeownership-becoming-unsustainable-and-inaccessible/ https://www.rismedia.com/2019/09/03/is-middle-class-homeowne... It doesnt matter how much money you make, if that money cannot buy you a shelter. You might disagree but next years are only going to make that crisis worse and worse. And more and more families will be not able to sustain the level of life our parents had - even whwn working 5 times as hard.
    - sershe 5y ago
      The 2nd link has later data. Housing is an arbitrary metric (home ownership is only one aspect of class; it's very us specific - renting is far more normalized in other places; there may be unrelated shifts towards renting, e.g. for millennials supposedly leaving suburbs for the cities), and even with that the article doesn't even quantity a problem - it just points at some expensive cities, and some potential issues, while showing median income is still easily enough to buy a median house, etc. There's no metric according to which middle class is becoming poorer over any reasonable term in it. And any very recent change was probably caused by pandemic and reaction to it, not a part of some trend.. to revert it, we should stop doing what we were doing for the past year or two :) Btw iirc price to income ratio in the us is also one of the lowest in developed countries, or on par. Long term, I think the thinning middle class narrative is closer to being merely humanities grads complaining that they cannot afford to live in NYC and SF, than to any real issue ;)
      - pojzon 5y ago
        How can middle class not become poorer if inflation alone is making us able to buy less stuff that matters. How can you say my grandpa that was able to afford a big house and feed 5 children working alone as grandma was taking care pf the house - was not living in better financial condition than me who makes 3 times as much money as he did but I cannot afford half of what he could… The current definition of the middle class is constantly changing based on income only - which makes no sense. It should be calculated towards buying power you have. And buying power over the years for ppl like me and younger only decreases. Thus -> middle class crisis is going to hit the fan like really soon. It already did in China and its going to hit US too.