6 ms·

Interestingly, there was a Lyme vaccine in the late 90s that was pulled from the market: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ https://www.ncbi

Interestingly, there was a Lyme vaccine in the late 90s that was pulled from the market: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2870557/ I think it’s a shame it was withdrawn, with a low effectiveness of 80% and even requiring annual boosters I’d view that as a great option if I lived somewhere with deer ticks. Lyme disease is scary.

partiallypro 5y ago
I think the alpha-gal allegy is also scary. Hopefully this will help with that.
- shagie 5y ago
  For a bit on this - from Radiolab https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/alpha-gal https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/alpha... There was also a followup a few weeks ago - https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/return-alpha-gal https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/retur...
giantg2 5y ago
I think the problem is that the main way of testing for Lyme is to test for the antibodies. So what if you fall in the 20%? How will you know? You'll still end up being treating whether vaccinated or not.
- coolso 5y ago
  > You'll still end up being treating whether vaccinated or not. Isn’t the typical treatment a course of antibiotics? In other words the risks from being “unnecessarily” treated should be fairly low.
  - throwawayboise 5y ago
    Any unnecessary use of antibiotics should be avoided, as it can create an environment for the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
    - coolso 5y ago
      Yes, but I believe the most common antibiotics prescribed for Lyme disease are doxycycline and monocycline, two antibiotics that are used by millions daily (on a somewhat long-term basis) already for the management of things like acne. While certainly not ideal, with 8 million prescriptions in the US alone, I'm not sure an additional potentially unnecessary course of doxycycline is the worst thing in the world when compared to the possibility that the alternative is full blown Lyme disease.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    It's sort of the inverse. If you're treated either way, then the vaccine is unnecessary. There are risks, even if rare, associated with vaccines. Basically, there's no value added and a very slight increase of risks.
- CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
  Could we not check for the type of antibodies just like we do with covid?
  - steffen84 5y ago
    This how it’s done in germany. Just got tested for Lyme disease. Tick bite was in late summer no rash. The skin in the area changed to red/blue after 5 months, so i got tested and the test was positive. Antibodies IgG 46, IgM 5. Now 3 weeks of antibiotics.
- theptip 5y ago
  I’m far more more concerned about “undetected tick bite => lifetime incurable Lyme disease” than “detected tick bite => unnecessary course of antibiotics”.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Last summer, I noticed an odd spot on a leg of my female colleague when she arrived at work in a short skirt. Fortunately, we are good friends and I could tell her without any kind of trouble. Yes, she had a tick on that precise place a week before. Yes, it looked like erythema migrans, a typical early sign of a Lyme infection (borreliosis). No, she never heard about that and was a bit reluctant about doing anything about it. Yes, I persuaded her to see her doctor now. She got antibiotics immediately and seems to be fine.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    That makes sense, except how does one have an undetected tick bite?
    - theptip 5y ago
      One reason Lyme disease is so scary is that it’s really common to not notice that you got bit. How often do you inspect the back of your knees? (If you live in tick country, it should be “every time you get back from being in the woods”, but many don’t know/practice this.) It’s a common story to hear about people who don’t connect the dots, and don’t get properly diagnosed early when it’s more treatable.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        Ok... and you think the people that don't know to check for ticks will know to get a Lyme vaccine? This doesn't seem logical to me. Most people in those environments know to check for ticks in my experience. The ones who don't are not the type to request a vaccine that they probably don't even know about.
        5y ago
TelixBBS 5y ago
- polskibus 5y ago
  What are you taking about? It’s in most of Europe, Asia etc. climate changes pushed ticks to new areas. It’s not just “east northern states”.
  - TelixBBS 5y ago
    - chris_wot 5y ago
      HN is read by people all over the world. Not just those in the U.S.
      - TelixBBS 5y ago
  - Den-vr 5y ago
    https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html Indeed, it is not just "east northern states."
    - klyrs 5y ago
      I know one of the people who is represented in that table. He got bit in New Jersey, and didn't notice the target growing on his chest until he was driving home, and didn't get treated until he arrived home in Washington (because that's where he's insured; go healthcare). The CDC would count that as a Washington State incident. See point 3 in the study's stated limitations[1]: > 3. Surveillance data are captured by county of residence, not county of exposure. Given that he was 1 of 12 cases in that year, I wouldn't interpret that table as proof that the range of Lyme-infected ticks has spread to Washington state. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/survfaq.html https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/survfaq.html
Den-vr 5y ago
I agree the disease is scary. The antibiotic regiment has real side-effects, I've known it to cause sunburns from casual sunlight exposure. https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html
- detritus 5y ago
  Ooh, reminds me of my days abusing St John's Wort (amongst a great many other things) during Uni days and feeelig my skin bristle and burn in the heat of light shards of sunlight streaming between otherwise closed curtains... .
- elric 5y ago
  Oh! This happened to me, and I thought I was just crazy sensitive or something, but it turns out to be an actual thing? After a few days on antibiotics for lyme, I walked to the shop to buy sunscreen. Spent maybe 20 minutes outside. Worst sunburn I've ever had. Anything that can help prevent tick borne diseases is a win in my book. In Western Europe, in many cases that should probably include restoring wildlife habitats...
  - grepfru_it 5y ago
    Doxycycline? I thought that was a known side effect. My dermatologist warned me about it when I went on a course during the summer months. This was over a decade ago, maybe they stopped warning patients?
    - javagram 5y ago
      Doctors seem to forget to do that sometimes, or the patients miss it. Someone I knew was put on a three month course and got a unusual sunburn, later I googled doxycycline and realized the likely connection.
  - hermitdev 5y ago
    My dad developed a sun allergy after going on a specific antibiotic following a spider bite. Been too long for me to recall what the antibiotic was, but I remember him having to apply sunscreen for even under his clothes, long sleeves, pants, gloves and wide brimmed hat through out the summer. If memory serves, it lasted several months, quite a while after he was done with the treatment. Also, I've only seen people mentioning Lyme disease, but Rocky Mountain spotted tick fever is another tick borne disease you don't want to catch. My understanding it's also one of the main reasons a biosafety level 4 facility is being built in Hamilton, MT [0]. Though, I had thought the facility had been built a long time ago. [0] https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/biosafety-labs-needed https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/biosafety-labs-needed
throwawayboise 5y ago
Veterinary vaccination for lyme disease is common. According to Wikipedia, the human vaccine was withdrawn due to poor market performance. Claims of autoimmune-type side effects led to several lawsuits, and though CDC and FDA found no connection to the vaccine, the public largely rejected it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination
moneywoes 5y ago
Any reason it can’t be brought back?

partiallypro 5y ago

I think the alpha-gal allegy is also scary. Hopefully this will help with that.

shagie 5y ago
For a bit on this - from Radiolab https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/alpha-gal https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/alpha... There was also a followup a few weeks ago - https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/return-alpha-gal https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/retur...

giantg2 5y ago

I think the problem is that the main way of testing for Lyme is to test for the antibodies. So what if you fall in the 20%? How will you know? You'll still end up being treating whether vaccinated or not.

coolso 5y ago
> You'll still end up being treating whether vaccinated or not. Isn’t the typical treatment a course of antibiotics? In other words the risks from being “unnecessarily” treated should be fairly low.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Any unnecessary use of antibiotics should be avoided, as it can create an environment for the development of antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
  - coolso 5y ago
    Yes, but I believe the most common antibiotics prescribed for Lyme disease are doxycycline and monocycline, two antibiotics that are used by millions daily (on a somewhat long-term basis) already for the management of things like acne. While certainly not ideal, with 8 million prescriptions in the US alone, I'm not sure an additional potentially unnecessary course of doxycycline is the worst thing in the world when compared to the possibility that the alternative is full blown Lyme disease.
- giantg2 5y ago
  It's sort of the inverse. If you're treated either way, then the vaccine is unnecessary. There are risks, even if rare, associated with vaccines. Basically, there's no value added and a very slight increase of risks.
CorrectHorseBat 5y ago
Could we not check for the type of antibodies just like we do with covid?
- steffen84 5y ago
  This how it’s done in germany. Just got tested for Lyme disease. Tick bite was in late summer no rash. The skin in the area changed to red/blue after 5 months, so i got tested and the test was positive. Antibodies IgG 46, IgM 5. Now 3 weeks of antibiotics.
theptip 5y ago
I’m far more more concerned about “undetected tick bite => lifetime incurable Lyme disease” than “detected tick bite => unnecessary course of antibiotics”.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Last summer, I noticed an odd spot on a leg of my female colleague when she arrived at work in a short skirt. Fortunately, we are good friends and I could tell her without any kind of trouble. Yes, she had a tick on that precise place a week before. Yes, it looked like erythema migrans, a typical early sign of a Lyme infection (borreliosis). No, she never heard about that and was a bit reluctant about doing anything about it. Yes, I persuaded her to see her doctor now. She got antibiotics immediately and seems to be fine.
- giantg2 5y ago
  That makes sense, except how does one have an undetected tick bite?
  - theptip 5y ago
    One reason Lyme disease is so scary is that it’s really common to not notice that you got bit. How often do you inspect the back of your knees? (If you live in tick country, it should be “every time you get back from being in the woods”, but many don’t know/practice this.) It’s a common story to hear about people who don’t connect the dots, and don’t get properly diagnosed early when it’s more treatable.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      Ok... and you think the people that don't know to check for ticks will know to get a Lyme vaccine? This doesn't seem logical to me. Most people in those environments know to check for ticks in my experience. The ones who don't are not the type to request a vaccine that they probably don't even know about.
      - 5y ago

TelixBBS 5y ago

polskibus 5y ago
What are you taking about? It’s in most of Europe, Asia etc. climate changes pushed ticks to new areas. It’s not just “east northern states”.
- TelixBBS 5y ago
  - chris_wot 5y ago
    HN is read by people all over the world. Not just those in the U.S.
    - TelixBBS 5y ago
- Den-vr 5y ago
  https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html Indeed, it is not just "east northern states."
  - klyrs 5y ago
    I know one of the people who is represented in that table. He got bit in New Jersey, and didn't notice the target growing on his chest until he was driving home, and didn't get treated until he arrived home in Washington (because that's where he's insured; go healthcare). The CDC would count that as a Washington State incident. See point 3 in the study's stated limitations[1]: > 3. Surveillance data are captured by county of residence, not county of exposure. Given that he was 1 of 12 cases in that year, I wouldn't interpret that table as proof that the range of Lyme-infected ticks has spread to Washington state. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/survfaq.html https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/survfaq.html

Den-vr 5y ago

I agree the disease is scary. The antibiotic regiment has real side-effects, I've known it to cause sunburns from casual sunlight exposure. https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html https://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/tables.html

detritus 5y ago
Ooh, reminds me of my days abusing St John's Wort (amongst a great many other things) during Uni days and feeelig my skin bristle and burn in the heat of light shards of sunlight streaming between otherwise closed curtains... .
elric 5y ago
Oh! This happened to me, and I thought I was just crazy sensitive or something, but it turns out to be an actual thing? After a few days on antibiotics for lyme, I walked to the shop to buy sunscreen. Spent maybe 20 minutes outside. Worst sunburn I've ever had. Anything that can help prevent tick borne diseases is a win in my book. In Western Europe, in many cases that should probably include restoring wildlife habitats...
- grepfru_it 5y ago
  Doxycycline? I thought that was a known side effect. My dermatologist warned me about it when I went on a course during the summer months. This was over a decade ago, maybe they stopped warning patients?
  - javagram 5y ago
    Doctors seem to forget to do that sometimes, or the patients miss it. Someone I knew was put on a three month course and got a unusual sunburn, later I googled doxycycline and realized the likely connection.
- hermitdev 5y ago
  My dad developed a sun allergy after going on a specific antibiotic following a spider bite. Been too long for me to recall what the antibiotic was, but I remember him having to apply sunscreen for even under his clothes, long sleeves, pants, gloves and wide brimmed hat through out the summer. If memory serves, it lasted several months, quite a while after he was done with the treatment. Also, I've only seen people mentioning Lyme disease, but Rocky Mountain spotted tick fever is another tick borne disease you don't want to catch. My understanding it's also one of the main reasons a biosafety level 4 facility is being built in Hamilton, MT [0]. Though, I had thought the facility had been built a long time ago. [0] https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/biosafety-labs-needed https://www.niaid.nih.gov/research/biosafety-labs-needed

throwawayboise 5y ago

Veterinary vaccination for lyme disease is common. According to Wikipedia, the human vaccine was withdrawn due to poor market performance. Claims of autoimmune-type side effects led to several lawsuits, and though CDC and FDA found no connection to the vaccine, the public largely rejected it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_disease#Vaccination

moneywoes 5y ago

Any reason it can’t be brought back?