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I never understood why Apple catches so much flack for this. They don’t own Foxconn, it’s a contact. There’s only so much they can audit, and is there any other

I never understood why Apple catches so much flack for this. They don’t own Foxconn, it’s a contact. There’s only so much they can audit, and is there any other company they could choose instead who has iPhone-level manufacturing scale? I suspect they’ve got no choice but Foxxcon and Pegatron. Pick your poison.

klyrs 5y ago
Apple is making money hand over fist, and they've got nearly $200B cash on hand. They aren't directly responsible for the working conditions, but they set the terms of the contract. They could pay more, and demand humane treatment and living wages in their contract. With that warchest, they could afford their own manufacturing facilities -- Foxxcon vs Petragon is a false dichotomy. But they don't. This is their responsibility, but they prefer to keep it at arms-length and pretend that they don't know what conditions will result from paying a certain price per unit.
- mohanmcgeek 5y ago
  The factory in question doesn't make just iphones. It also makes Amazon firesticks "among other things" Apple specifically getting called out here is odd to say the least. Besides, Apple is the only company that has put the said plant under probation. If anything, the other companies should be getting some flak for not even caring. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/rumour-leads-to-protest-in-foxconn-factory-near-chennai/article37983801.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/rumour-lea...
  - klyrs 5y ago
    I agree, other companies should be getting flak for this. Apple does not deserve less attention. Apple has the power and financial standing to make a difference here. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Just because others are using this facility isn't an excuse by any means. Like I said, Apple could build another factory. They choose not to, because they profit from the human rights abuses.
    - quesera 5y ago
      > Apple could build another factory. If you are knowledgeable about precision manufacturing and supply lines, you'll know that it is not that simple. Apple shut the plant down. They are making a difference. Do you know what it was like before Apple arrived with enormous manufacturing requirements, and had the power to influence things? Not better! Apple does not profit from human rights abuses. Apple writes contracts to prevent them. Those contracts are not always followed, and Apple's audits sometimes fail to turn up problems in time. This can be tragic, but it's blatantly incorrect to assert that Apple doesn't take this extremely seriously.
      - mhoad 5y ago
      - lp0_on_fire 5y ago
        > If you are knowledgeable about precision manufacturing and supply lines, you'll know that it is not that simple. They have 200 BILLION dollars CASH on hand. It might not be "simple" but it's certainly not impossible when you're richer than Croesus.
        klyrs 5y ago
        Indeed, I cannot understand how "you have $200B, there are more than two options here" could be interpreted to imply that a third option is necessarily simple.
  - gruez 5y ago
    >Apple specifically getting called out here is odd to say the least. "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic" Saying "$COMPANY treats its workers poorly" provides a concrete entity to be mad at and might lead to some protests/social media posts, whereas saying "most electronics makers treat their workers poorly probably leads to a resounding "that sucks but what can you do?".
    - zdragnar 5y ago
      Ah yes, the "but Something has to be done" fallacy. Placing blame arbitrarily, directing anger at the wrong people, and protesting because the mob said to on social media all leads to solutions for the wrong problems.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        I don't have standing for any legal act in India. I can boycott and criticize the company that's doing business in my country. And that's why we focus on Apple -- the company whose reputation is so important to its market value.
dehrmann 5y ago
Half the reason to go with a contractor is you know they'll do sketchy things, but you get to plead ignorance.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  See Amazon's delivery drivers... "We never said they had to pee in bottles and run red lights to make the delivery schedules, that's on them! We just said deliver these packages..."
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    Piss bottles have been standard industry practice long before Amazon.
maerF0x0 5y ago
> I suspect they’ve got no choice but Foxxcon and Pegatron If my quick google is correct they could buy foxconn for ~$3B USD out of the 36B cash on hand. Or start building a competitor...
- ectopod 5y ago
  Or make the phones themselves!
gimmeThaBeet 5y ago
I would mostly agree, the thing I try to understand is the motivations for working with these ODMs. There's sort of the line of business. Just assuming from a black box, Apple wants to build devices in these low-cost countries. Is it a competitive advantage to do this themselves? Do they have the skillset and wherewithal to do it well? They design chips, but they have TSMC make them, because among other things, there's much more to being a fab that bluntly, I think apple is not equipped for. Similarly, I think, design the products, figure out processes, then get them from the companies that spend all their time coordinating and building the stuff at a global scale. Not to exculpate Foxconn, this is not the first time there's been stories like this of Indian facilities of Taiwan ODMs. And usually the first thing that gets pointed out, is that the ODM is itself using local contractors. So the reality is, where does the buck actually stop? The big question I have, is how would apple do this themselves? Is it that Foxconn has not quite figured out how to operate in India effectively, or is there some implicit outsourcing of misery to the next sub-contractor? I assume apple also works with everyone else who has the scale to build iPhones like Wistron and Flex, but apple already similarly put one of Wistron's Indian factories on probation after a riot due to unpaid wages(?). I want to say they were mainly doing macbooks and ipads? My understanding was one of the things is that the ODM books all the components and sort of capital for building things, so there's some capital structure things that I probably don't fully appreciate. No guarantee that's correct though...
evilduck 5y ago
I think it's as simple that for every "Apple can do no wrong" out of touch fanboy, there's about a half dozen "Apple can do nothing good" commenters online that are angered by Apple simply continuing to exist. No amount of oversight, auditing or spending will appease them even if it's tenfold as much as the next best tech company.
- mhoad 5y ago
  Apple publicly promised everyone that the first time they were exposed as having terrible working conditions and major human rights issues in their supply chain that it would never happen again. They are the largest company in the world they are entirely capable of delivering on that promise. Asking for some accountability on that isn’t some hysterical opinion.
  - evilduck 5y ago
    Sorry dude but your comments on this thread are the standard Apple-hater stereotype, so forgive me for not believing you care. Where's the outrage about Playstations, XBoxes, Dells and Pixels made by Foxconn? Nowhere, because nobody cares when it isn't Apple. There's never a demand that we change trade agreements at a political level. There's never a news story that Microsoft is sourcing from Foxconn. That makes the motives for the concern suspect. By all means, we should hold Apple accountable to their word. But this seems like the absolute least effective way to enact the change being requested.
    - mhoad 5y ago
      What on earth are you talking about? Of course people can be mad at Apple specifically for the reasons already outlined: 1. This is a long term pattern of behaviour from them. 2. They promised they would fix it. While everyone seems to agree that as the largest company in the world they are entirely capable of doing that the fact is they didn’t. 3. There is zero chance that any of this is happening without their knowledge. That excuse worked the first time but not now. Anyone who fits that pattern is of course fair game but don’t pull that kind of nonsense where unless you criticise everything that is wrong in tech supply chains than you are secretly “just a hater”. If you claim that we should hold Apple to account for their word how exactly do you suggest we go about change?

klyrs 5y ago

Apple is making money hand over fist, and they've got nearly $200B cash on hand. They aren't directly responsible for the working conditions, but they set the terms of the contract. They could pay more, and demand humane treatment and living wages in their contract. With that warchest, they could afford their own manufacturing facilities -- Foxxcon vs Petragon is a false dichotomy. But they don't. This is their responsibility, but they prefer to keep it at arms-length and pretend that they don't know what conditions will result from paying a certain price per unit.

mohanmcgeek 5y ago
The factory in question doesn't make just iphones. It also makes Amazon firesticks "among other things" Apple specifically getting called out here is odd to say the least. Besides, Apple is the only company that has put the said plant under probation. If anything, the other companies should be getting some flak for not even caring. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/rumour-leads-to-protest-in-foxconn-factory-near-chennai/article37983801.ece https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/tamil-nadu/rumour-lea...
- klyrs 5y ago
  I agree, other companies should be getting flak for this. Apple does not deserve less attention. Apple has the power and financial standing to make a difference here. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Just because others are using this facility isn't an excuse by any means. Like I said, Apple could build another factory. They choose not to, because they profit from the human rights abuses.
  - quesera 5y ago
    > Apple could build another factory. If you are knowledgeable about precision manufacturing and supply lines, you'll know that it is not that simple. Apple shut the plant down. They are making a difference. Do you know what it was like before Apple arrived with enormous manufacturing requirements, and had the power to influence things? Not better! Apple does not profit from human rights abuses. Apple writes contracts to prevent them. Those contracts are not always followed, and Apple's audits sometimes fail to turn up problems in time. This can be tragic, but it's blatantly incorrect to assert that Apple doesn't take this extremely seriously.
    - mhoad 5y ago
    - lp0_on_fire 5y ago
      > If you are knowledgeable about precision manufacturing and supply lines, you'll know that it is not that simple. They have 200 BILLION dollars CASH on hand. It might not be "simple" but it's certainly not impossible when you're richer than Croesus.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        Indeed, I cannot understand how "you have $200B, there are more than two options here" could be interpreted to imply that a third option is necessarily simple.
- gruez 5y ago
  >Apple specifically getting called out here is odd to say the least. "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic" Saying "$COMPANY treats its workers poorly" provides a concrete entity to be mad at and might lead to some protests/social media posts, whereas saying "most electronics makers treat their workers poorly probably leads to a resounding "that sucks but what can you do?".
  - zdragnar 5y ago
    Ah yes, the "but Something has to be done" fallacy. Placing blame arbitrarily, directing anger at the wrong people, and protesting because the mob said to on social media all leads to solutions for the wrong problems.
    - klyrs 5y ago
      I don't have standing for any legal act in India. I can boycott and criticize the company that's doing business in my country. And that's why we focus on Apple -- the company whose reputation is so important to its market value.

dehrmann 5y ago

Half the reason to go with a contractor is you know they'll do sketchy things, but you get to plead ignorance.

Syonyk 5y ago
See Amazon's delivery drivers... "We never said they had to pee in bottles and run red lights to make the delivery schedules, that's on them! We just said deliver these packages..."
- dehrmann 5y ago
  Piss bottles have been standard industry practice long before Amazon.

maerF0x0 5y ago

> I suspect they’ve got no choice but Foxxcon and Pegatron If my quick google is correct they could buy foxconn for ~$3B USD out of the 36B cash on hand. Or start building a competitor...

ectopod 5y ago
Or make the phones themselves!

gimmeThaBeet 5y ago

I would mostly agree, the thing I try to understand is the motivations for working with these ODMs. There's sort of the line of business. Just assuming from a black box, Apple wants to build devices in these low-cost countries. Is it a competitive advantage to do this themselves? Do they have the skillset and wherewithal to do it well? They design chips, but they have TSMC make them, because among other things, there's much more to being a fab that bluntly, I think apple is not equipped for. Similarly, I think, design the products, figure out processes, then get them from the companies that spend all their time coordinating and building the stuff at a global scale. Not to exculpate Foxconn, this is not the first time there's been stories like this of Indian facilities of Taiwan ODMs. And usually the first thing that gets pointed out, is that the ODM is itself using local contractors. So the reality is, where does the buck actually stop? The big question I have, is how would apple do this themselves? Is it that Foxconn has not quite figured out how to operate in India effectively, or is there some implicit outsourcing of misery to the next sub-contractor? I assume apple also works with everyone else who has the scale to build iPhones like Wistron and Flex, but apple already similarly put one of Wistron's Indian factories on probation after a riot due to unpaid wages(?). I want to say they were mainly doing macbooks and ipads? My understanding was one of the things is that the ODM books all the components and sort of capital for building things, so there's some capital structure things that I probably don't fully appreciate. No guarantee that's correct though...

evilduck 5y ago

I think it's as simple that for every "Apple can do no wrong" out of touch fanboy, there's about a half dozen "Apple can do nothing good" commenters online that are angered by Apple simply continuing to exist. No amount of oversight, auditing or spending will appease them even if it's tenfold as much as the next best tech company.

mhoad 5y ago
Apple publicly promised everyone that the first time they were exposed as having terrible working conditions and major human rights issues in their supply chain that it would never happen again. They are the largest company in the world they are entirely capable of delivering on that promise. Asking for some accountability on that isn’t some hysterical opinion.
- evilduck 5y ago
  Sorry dude but your comments on this thread are the standard Apple-hater stereotype, so forgive me for not believing you care. Where's the outrage about Playstations, XBoxes, Dells and Pixels made by Foxconn? Nowhere, because nobody cares when it isn't Apple. There's never a demand that we change trade agreements at a political level. There's never a news story that Microsoft is sourcing from Foxconn. That makes the motives for the concern suspect. By all means, we should hold Apple accountable to their word. But this seems like the absolute least effective way to enact the change being requested.
  - mhoad 5y ago
    What on earth are you talking about? Of course people can be mad at Apple specifically for the reasons already outlined: 1. This is a long term pattern of behaviour from them. 2. They promised they would fix it. While everyone seems to agree that as the largest company in the world they are entirely capable of doing that the fact is they didn’t. 3. There is zero chance that any of this is happening without their knowledge. That excuse worked the first time but not now. Anyone who fits that pattern is of course fair game but don’t pull that kind of nonsense where unless you criticise everything that is wrong in tech supply chains than you are secretly “just a hater”. If you claim that we should hold Apple to account for their word how exactly do you suggest we go about change?