4 ms·

They are also tremendously slow, somewhat fragile, prone to media decay, and extremely difficult to source replacement media in 2021. Replacement drives are al

They are also tremendously slow, somewhat fragile, prone to media decay, and extremely difficult to source replacement media in 2021. Replacement drives are also somewhat hard to find. Most people with security constraints have long since moved on to optical media (CDr and DVDr), but even those are starting to become hard to find. Optical media has the advantage of having write-once modes which makes it easier to avoid cross contaminating data. The workflow is very straightforward, burn the disc, run it through the dedicated virus scanner, copy the data on the target platform, toss the disc in the shredder. The cost of each disc is negligable, especially if you start counting the man-hours wasted waiting on that incredibly slow floppy interface.

WalterBright 5y ago
> prone to media decay Not in my experience. I have floppies 40 years old that haven't lost a byte.
- wolrah 5y ago
  My old floppies are great. The newer ones, starting around 2000 or so, are mostly junk.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I haven't bought a floppy since 2000, so I wouldn't know!
- pxx 5y ago
  ... and I have had 3.5" floppies that have lost data by taking them for a five minute walk a block away. 40 years indicates you're probably using 5¼" (or larger!) media which is slightly better at media decay due to lower densities.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    I just recently went through around 300 floppy disks -- 3.5" HD mostly, but also some 5.25" 360k and a few 3.5" DD. All dating to 1985-1995. Overwhelming majority of the disks were readable. I have about 15-20 that aren't... and many of them may be formatted Mac 800k which I am not able to read out right now, rather than corrupted. This even includes many DD disks that were formatted as HD by my PS/2 that just didn't care. Was a slight hassle to get newer drives to ignore the absence of the density hole and read them out. The bigger problem is that almost all the interesting data I'd want from that era was generally overwritten by dumb stuff. Why keep old papers and source code from when I was a "baby", when a friend was offering a copy of a game?
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I have many 3.5 inchers. None of them lost data, either. Although as a precaution, I long ago copied them en masse to CDROMs. Later, the CDROMs got copied to hard disks. I gave away my PDP-11 long ago, but not before I copied the 8" floppies it had (circa 1980). But one day I realized I had neglected to copy a critical file. I had the floppies, but no way to copy them. Then I remembered a friend of mine, Shal Farley, might still have an -11. Calling him up, sure enough, he had it but hadn't fired it up in years and was about to dispose of it. I mailed him the floppies. He fired up the -11, it still worked fine, and the floppies all copied perfectly. My entire box of floppies, every byte. A big thanks to Shal and his company, Cheshire Engineering. (The missing file was one of the source files to Empire for the PDP-11, which I have now backed up on https://github.com/DigitalMars/Empire-for-PDP-11 https://github.com/DigitalMars/Empire-for-PDP-11 )
    - Javantea_ 5y ago
      Thank you for sharing your source code for Empire!
- laumars 5y ago
  So have I. But I also remember plenty of floppies that I’ve written data to not even surviving the 30 minute cycle to college back in the 90s. Maybe consumer floppies were of a lower quality than published ones? I don’t know if that’s true but I do remember having a really low success rate with consumer floppies (it got so bad I’d often write two floppies just in case).
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    I'd cut a notch in the floppies so I could turn them over and use them. The back sides worked fine, too!
    - laumars 5y ago
      I’d have still expected them be writable because unlike CDs, writing a magnetic field isn’t destructive. But what I meant was whether cheap blank disks used a slightly different (cheaper) magnetic alloy with a shorter read/write limit than commercial software where they maybe spent a little more knowing it needed to be read often? I do remember cassettes had different quality magnetic strips but I don’t know if the same was ever true for disks too… so it’s probably bonkers. I’m just throwing some ideas around without much thought. :) It might just be a case that college kid me was less careful with his disks than you were. More recently though, I have unboxed my old collection of 3” (not 3.5” but literally 3 inch) floppies for the Amstrad CPC 464 and they almost all worked despite being nearly 40 years old. So I definitely believe you when you post about your success rate.
      - evilDagmar 5y ago
        It depended on which brands of floppies you bought. Some vendors were more profit-oriented than others and would skimp on the binding agent or just the amount of magnetic material without which the signal can become so weak they could become corrupted by being the the same room as a Wooly Willy.
    - noizejoy 5y ago
      That was one of the earliest instances I remember, where superior functionality was shipped with a product but kind of locked up. And like some other such “locks” they were easily defeated.
reaperducer 5y ago
They are also tremendously slow When you're only reading 1.44 megs of data, speed isn't that big a deal.
- jandrese 5y ago
  It has been many years now, but I recall a full floppy dump took on the order of a few minutes to complete. Small data sizes were countered by the incredibly slow floppy drive interface.
akoster 5y ago
They are decently easy to find in popular capacities at http://floppydisk.com http://floppydisk.com

WalterBright 5y ago

> prone to media decay Not in my experience. I have floppies 40 years old that haven't lost a byte.

wolrah 5y ago
My old floppies are great. The newer ones, starting around 2000 or so, are mostly junk.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I haven't bought a floppy since 2000, so I wouldn't know!
pxx 5y ago
... and I have had 3.5" floppies that have lost data by taking them for a five minute walk a block away. 40 years indicates you're probably using 5¼" (or larger!) media which is slightly better at media decay due to lower densities.
- mlyle 5y ago
  I just recently went through around 300 floppy disks -- 3.5" HD mostly, but also some 5.25" 360k and a few 3.5" DD. All dating to 1985-1995. Overwhelming majority of the disks were readable. I have about 15-20 that aren't... and many of them may be formatted Mac 800k which I am not able to read out right now, rather than corrupted. This even includes many DD disks that were formatted as HD by my PS/2 that just didn't care. Was a slight hassle to get newer drives to ignore the absence of the density hole and read them out. The bigger problem is that almost all the interesting data I'd want from that era was generally overwritten by dumb stuff. Why keep old papers and source code from when I was a "baby", when a friend was offering a copy of a game?
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I have many 3.5 inchers. None of them lost data, either. Although as a precaution, I long ago copied them en masse to CDROMs. Later, the CDROMs got copied to hard disks. I gave away my PDP-11 long ago, but not before I copied the 8" floppies it had (circa 1980). But one day I realized I had neglected to copy a critical file. I had the floppies, but no way to copy them. Then I remembered a friend of mine, Shal Farley, might still have an -11. Calling him up, sure enough, he had it but hadn't fired it up in years and was about to dispose of it. I mailed him the floppies. He fired up the -11, it still worked fine, and the floppies all copied perfectly. My entire box of floppies, every byte. A big thanks to Shal and his company, Cheshire Engineering. (The missing file was one of the source files to Empire for the PDP-11, which I have now backed up on https://github.com/DigitalMars/Empire-for-PDP-11 https://github.com/DigitalMars/Empire-for-PDP-11 )
  - Javantea_ 5y ago
    Thank you for sharing your source code for Empire!
laumars 5y ago
So have I. But I also remember plenty of floppies that I’ve written data to not even surviving the 30 minute cycle to college back in the 90s. Maybe consumer floppies were of a lower quality than published ones? I don’t know if that’s true but I do remember having a really low success rate with consumer floppies (it got so bad I’d often write two floppies just in case).
- WalterBright 5y ago
  I'd cut a notch in the floppies so I could turn them over and use them. The back sides worked fine, too!
  - laumars 5y ago
    I’d have still expected them be writable because unlike CDs, writing a magnetic field isn’t destructive. But what I meant was whether cheap blank disks used a slightly different (cheaper) magnetic alloy with a shorter read/write limit than commercial software where they maybe spent a little more knowing it needed to be read often? I do remember cassettes had different quality magnetic strips but I don’t know if the same was ever true for disks too… so it’s probably bonkers. I’m just throwing some ideas around without much thought. :) It might just be a case that college kid me was less careful with his disks than you were. More recently though, I have unboxed my old collection of 3” (not 3.5” but literally 3 inch) floppies for the Amstrad CPC 464 and they almost all worked despite being nearly 40 years old. So I definitely believe you when you post about your success rate.
    - evilDagmar 5y ago
      It depended on which brands of floppies you bought. Some vendors were more profit-oriented than others and would skimp on the binding agent or just the amount of magnetic material without which the signal can become so weak they could become corrupted by being the the same room as a Wooly Willy.
  - noizejoy 5y ago
    That was one of the earliest instances I remember, where superior functionality was shipped with a product but kind of locked up. And like some other such “locks” they were easily defeated.

reaperducer 5y ago

They are also tremendously slow When you're only reading 1.44 megs of data, speed isn't that big a deal.

jandrese 5y ago
It has been many years now, but I recall a full floppy dump took on the order of a few minutes to complete. Small data sizes were countered by the incredibly slow floppy drive interface.

akoster 5y ago

They are decently easy to find in popular capacities at http://floppydisk.com http://floppydisk.com