6 ms·

Many people like to say "Idiocracy is a documentary" or some similar thing implying they think it's realistic. I've never seen anybody take the premise of the m

Many people like to say "Idiocracy is a documentary" or some similar thing implying they think it's realistic. I've never seen anybody take the premise of the movie seriously though. If idiots are reproducing out of control and that will lead to a bad result, doesn't that mean we should reduce the reproduction of idiots and increase the reproduction of the intelligent? To avert Idiocracy we need eugenics, no?

cblconfederate 5y ago
Art isnt meant to be reality. A lot of comments here seem to be reading its plot as if it was some kind of futuristic documentary.
chrsig 5y ago
We'd only need eugenics if competency is strictly linked to genetics. We can probably make a lot of progress investing in schools, making higher education more accessible, finding more engaging teaching strategies, ensuring that parents have all the resources they need to care for their children...more access to mental health services...
carapace 5y ago
> I've never seen anybody take the premise of the movie seriously though. Where have you looked? People have been talking about this for awhile now. > If idiots are reproducing out of control and that will lead to a bad result Yeah... > doesn't that mean we should reduce the reproduction of idiots and increase the reproduction of the intelligent? Who's "we" in that sentence? Intelligent people are unlikely to adopt foolish plans, by definition. E.g. consider the (as yet fictional) Bene Gesserit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit
- chrsig 5y ago
  > Who's "we" in that sentence? Intelligent people are unlikely to adopt foolish plans, by definition. You're confusing intelligence with wisdom. Intelligent people are likely to recognize a plan as foolish. They may or may not have the wisdom to avoid adopting it. Knowledge doesn't necessarily change behavior -- there are many many smart people who've gotten addicted to harmful substances, for example.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    Not to mention many of the systemic problems in the world today have been caused by smart people letting their avarice, greed, and other base desires get the better of them.
  - carapace 5y ago
    > You're confusing intelligence with wisdom. Intelligent people are likely to recognize a plan as foolish. They may or may not have the wisdom to avoid adopting it. Well, to a first approximation wisdom is second-order intelligence, intelligence-about-intelligence, eh? Put another way, I see a continuum from mere cunning to intelligence to self-referential intelligence to sublime wisdom. E.g. the Tao Te Ching is (IMO) one of the clearest and greatest written expositions of wisdom, consider chapter seventeen on leaders: With the best kind of leader when the work is complete the people all say "We did it ourselves." Is that not describing hyper-intelligence? Leaders so smart and wise that they achieve their goals without anyone noticing them? In the context we're talking about, the "we" is (again by definition) the smartest (or, if you will, the wisest) minority, at the far end of the bell curve. The idea that idiocracy should be fought with eugenics is itself a layer of the idiocracy, not something that these very intelligent people would credit. > Knowledge doesn't necessarily change behavior -- there are many many smart people who've gotten addicted to harmful substances, for example. I disagree, I think that knowledge (by definition) is that information that makes us capable of changing our behaviour at will. Intelligence is operational. Smart people that become addicts and can't stop are obviously less intelligent than those who avoid it in the first place or who find ways to stop, surely?
    - chrsig 5y ago
      > Is that not describing hyper-intelligence? Leaders so smart and wise that they achieve their goals without anyone noticing them? Do you have a definition for hyper-intelligence? > I disagree, I think that knowledge (by definition) is that information that makes us capable of changing our behavior at will. Intelligence is operational. Smart people that become addicts and can't stop are obviously less intelligent than those who avoid it in the first place or who find ways to stop, surely? No, because intelligence and impulse control are separable things.
mikepurvis 5y ago
Or, you need to ensure a proper net in terms of higher education, health care, etc, so that even the children of "idiots" have a chance at breaking the cycle.
gota 5y ago
Idiocracy mixed being educated with being intelligent. Being educated is not hereditary and does not (I think) affect intelligence of your children* Satisfactory nutrition and exposure to positive and engaging environments during childhood affect your intelligence no matter who your parents were * other than that educated parents are more likely to provide the positive and engaging environment, maybe? Not in the least due to the correlation between education and $, which certainky affects both nutrition and the environment (e.g. toys, lessons, travel, etc.) Late disclaimer: I have no idea if this is what the scientific areas that study human intelligence believe
- nostrademons 5y ago
  There've been a number of studies on this, and they basically find otherwise. About 50% of the variability in intelligence is explained by genetics (nature); 10% is parental investment (nurture), and 40% is peers (which includes education, but also local communities, friend groups, etc.). Genetic heritability actually grows as IQ is measured later in life, reaching up to 80% by late adulthood. This effect could be explained because raw intelligence is usually correlated with several environmental factors that then factor into the "nurture" and "peers" components, eg. more intelligent parents are more likely to be highly educated themselves, better able to provide help with homework, higher income, live in a zip code with other intelligent people, can afford college, can afford tutoring to get the kids into an elite college, etc. The literature is too extensive to provide individual citations, but Google for [genetics of intelligence] or [heritability of intelligence] to get a sampling.
- InspiredIdiot 5y ago
  You're right but who cares if the route isn't genetic? If parents or society at large have essentially the same negative characteristics highlighted in the film and a higher birth rate it is functionally the same outcome.
  - InspiredIdiot 5y ago
    By the way, I'm not arguing for artificially controlling the birth rate or eugenics or whatever else. We need a properly-funded education system that teaches critical thinking. There is both a nature and nurture component to intelligence and related traits but we can get plenty of mileage by focusing on the nurture part.

cblconfederate 5y ago

Art isnt meant to be reality. A lot of comments here seem to be reading its plot as if it was some kind of futuristic documentary.

chrsig 5y ago

We'd only need eugenics if competency is strictly linked to genetics. We can probably make a lot of progress investing in schools, making higher education more accessible, finding more engaging teaching strategies, ensuring that parents have all the resources they need to care for their children...more access to mental health services...

carapace 5y ago

> I've never seen anybody take the premise of the movie seriously though. Where have you looked? People have been talking about this for awhile now. > If idiots are reproducing out of control and that will lead to a bad result Yeah... > doesn't that mean we should reduce the reproduction of idiots and increase the reproduction of the intelligent? Who's "we" in that sentence? Intelligent people are unlikely to adopt foolish plans, by definition. E.g. consider the (as yet fictional) Bene Gesserit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit

chrsig 5y ago
> Who's "we" in that sentence? Intelligent people are unlikely to adopt foolish plans, by definition. You're confusing intelligence with wisdom. Intelligent people are likely to recognize a plan as foolish. They may or may not have the wisdom to avoid adopting it. Knowledge doesn't necessarily change behavior -- there are many many smart people who've gotten addicted to harmful substances, for example.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Not to mention many of the systemic problems in the world today have been caused by smart people letting their avarice, greed, and other base desires get the better of them.
- carapace 5y ago
  > You're confusing intelligence with wisdom. Intelligent people are likely to recognize a plan as foolish. They may or may not have the wisdom to avoid adopting it. Well, to a first approximation wisdom is second-order intelligence, intelligence-about-intelligence, eh? Put another way, I see a continuum from mere cunning to intelligence to self-referential intelligence to sublime wisdom. E.g. the Tao Te Ching is (IMO) one of the clearest and greatest written expositions of wisdom, consider chapter seventeen on leaders: With the best kind of leader when the work is complete the people all say "We did it ourselves." Is that not describing hyper-intelligence? Leaders so smart and wise that they achieve their goals without anyone noticing them? In the context we're talking about, the "we" is (again by definition) the smartest (or, if you will, the wisest) minority, at the far end of the bell curve. The idea that idiocracy should be fought with eugenics is itself a layer of the idiocracy, not something that these very intelligent people would credit. > Knowledge doesn't necessarily change behavior -- there are many many smart people who've gotten addicted to harmful substances, for example. I disagree, I think that knowledge (by definition) is that information that makes us capable of changing our behaviour at will. Intelligence is operational. Smart people that become addicts and can't stop are obviously less intelligent than those who avoid it in the first place or who find ways to stop, surely?
  - chrsig 5y ago
    > Is that not describing hyper-intelligence? Leaders so smart and wise that they achieve their goals without anyone noticing them? Do you have a definition for hyper-intelligence? > I disagree, I think that knowledge (by definition) is that information that makes us capable of changing our behavior at will. Intelligence is operational. Smart people that become addicts and can't stop are obviously less intelligent than those who avoid it in the first place or who find ways to stop, surely? No, because intelligence and impulse control are separable things.

mikepurvis 5y ago

Or, you need to ensure a proper net in terms of higher education, health care, etc, so that even the children of "idiots" have a chance at breaking the cycle.

gota 5y ago

Idiocracy mixed being educated with being intelligent. Being educated is not hereditary and does not (I think) affect intelligence of your children* Satisfactory nutrition and exposure to positive and engaging environments during childhood affect your intelligence no matter who your parents were * other than that educated parents are more likely to provide the positive and engaging environment, maybe? Not in the least due to the correlation between education and $, which certainky affects both nutrition and the environment (e.g. toys, lessons, travel, etc.) Late disclaimer: I have no idea if this is what the scientific areas that study human intelligence believe

nostrademons 5y ago
There've been a number of studies on this, and they basically find otherwise. About 50% of the variability in intelligence is explained by genetics (nature); 10% is parental investment (nurture), and 40% is peers (which includes education, but also local communities, friend groups, etc.). Genetic heritability actually grows as IQ is measured later in life, reaching up to 80% by late adulthood. This effect could be explained because raw intelligence is usually correlated with several environmental factors that then factor into the "nurture" and "peers" components, eg. more intelligent parents are more likely to be highly educated themselves, better able to provide help with homework, higher income, live in a zip code with other intelligent people, can afford college, can afford tutoring to get the kids into an elite college, etc. The literature is too extensive to provide individual citations, but Google for [genetics of intelligence] or [heritability of intelligence] to get a sampling.
InspiredIdiot 5y ago
You're right but who cares if the route isn't genetic? If parents or society at large have essentially the same negative characteristics highlighted in the film and a higher birth rate it is functionally the same outcome.
- InspiredIdiot 5y ago
  By the way, I'm not arguing for artificially controlling the birth rate or eugenics or whatever else. We need a properly-funded education system that teaches critical thinking. There is both a nature and nurture component to intelligence and related traits but we can get plenty of mileage by focusing on the nurture part.