8 ms·

While this is beautiful, in my city the anti-car policies have been very hard on my family. My dad unfortunately relies on his car to get to work and isn't weal

by kypro 5y ago

While this is beautiful, in my city the anti-car policies have been very hard on my family. My dad unfortunately relies on his car to get to work and isn't wealthy enough to afford a home nearer the city centre to walk or bike. The constant removal of roads and introduction of clean air areas in recent years has made his commute very difficult now. I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike? On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities?

TomSwirly 5y ago
Public transportation is good here, which is the answer to most of your questions. > now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Why don't you bike or take the bus, then? > If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Before the pandemic, we did it entirely on bike. On the other hand, Dutch cities are designed differently, where markets are interspersed with the housing itself. In fact, we used to just walk to the supermarket about 200m away, but then a bigger version of that supermarket opened up 5 minutes bike ride away, so... Checkout is super-fast - shopping is so fast many people go every day, if only to get fresh bread. When I lived in New York, we would have one big shop once a week, it was such a chore. ---- In your world, we all drive cars and destroy our biosphere. Is that really what you want for your children?
isoprophlex 5y ago
About managing this as a family: get a cargo bike, optionally electrically powered. Moves 2-3 young kids, or groceries.
- hexo 5y ago
  Oh yea, in my country, the cargo bike is about 6x-8x more expensive than oldie car
  - Muromec 5y ago
    It's something around 5k Euro for a new one and it's not really a car replacement. It's a fancy toy for somewhat rich people who also have a car. Cars just are not allowed to some nice places (like a dedicated cycling path on a dijk) and also are not really fun. I have seen more cargo bikes with two or three kids in them on some kind of recreational road then I seen parked near grocery store. For groceries, you just have bike bags. To drops kids at school or daycare, you have kid seats on a normal bicycle (one on a front and one on a back).
    - isoprophlex 5y ago
      Yeah agreed, it's not the best (most egalitarian) solution... limited only to people with plenty of disposable income.
    - LeonidasXIV 5y ago
      A new cargobike (Christianiacycel) costs 1.5k Euro in Denmark, which is certainly not known for being cheap, so unless you buy a crazy luxury cargo bike you can get like 3 of those for < 5k. And probably much cheaper if you go second-hand. And yes, there's plenty of these on the streets, not only owned by rich people.
      - Muromec 5y ago
        Sure, 5k is Urban Arrow which is electric and arguably luxury.
      - 5y ago
y7 5y ago
> how do you drive your kids to school You use a bicycle. There are cargo bikes or bike seats. From age 7 or so they can be on their own bike and you can cycle alongside them. After a few more years, they can go on their own.
- kypro 5y ago
  Never heard of a cargo bike before, but that's a nice solution. Wouldn't mind one of those for trips to the local shops myself.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    There are lots of versions, and some of the manufacturers ship overseas or have representatives overseas or in other European countries.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
>I do wonder how this works for families? It's marginally harder. They make do, the ones majorly affected by the slight change in margin go elsewhere. Same as with every other quality of life issue. Look at the incentives. Large organizations with diffuse responsibility (e.g. government) don't have values other than following the incentives. Families and seniors suck up tons of the city's social services budget and don't engage in much taxable activity per capita. The incentives are there for the city to want them gone and there is no incentive for the city to not to things that make them want to leave. The counter incentive that applies to all the people (politicians, bureaucrats, etc,) in the system but not to the system as a whole is the incentive not to do anything too terrible or mean spirited and society likes families and doesn't want to harm them. That's what causes things to reach some semblance of an equilibrium.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Have you lived in NL?
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Have you worked in government? (I'll settle for a comparably silo'd government adjacent BigCo).
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      What kind of non-relevant answer is that? I asked you a polite and to the point question.
      - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
        > What kind of non-relevant answer is that? >I asked you a polite and to the point question. We're all capable of reading between the lines here. You asked the question because a more snide "tell me you've never lived in NL without telling me you lived in NL" or "yikes" doesn't fly here so you phrase it as a question (just like asking the question wouldn't fly elsewhere where the local norms are to be snide or offensive). I say "no" you use that as justification for saying I have no idea what I'm talking about. I say yes and you assert my experience is not relevant or whip out a No True Scotsman. It's just a bunch of BS rhetoric that serves as a barrier to whatever the actual disagreement and debate is. If my knowledge is so far off base, from lack of experience or otherwise then this should be a short debate. Do you disagree with my analysis on the incentives that cause government policy that makes life marginally more difficult for families to be formed? It appears you disagree with some part of it, so which part and how and why? And for the record I've lived there for months but not in a major urban area and not raising a family. Edit: edited to answer his question.
jacquesm 5y ago
It works very well, but it is much easier to experience it than to talk about it.
FooBarWidget 5y ago
> how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? The Netherlands is densely populated enough that you can often walk to primary school. Mine is located about 300 meters away, with another primary school about 1 km away. I used to walk by myself without parent supervision. Secondary high (middle school + high school are one single entity here) are fewer in number so that's when kids start needing bikes. Many kids can bike to school in 30m, but I had classmates who lived in some nearby village and biked for an hour. My niece in Amsterdam bikes for about 35-45m depending on school location (they have multiple) and biking speed. She takes public transport (tram and metro) on rainy days but door to door commute time is the same. These days, long bike commutes from villages could probably be more comfortable thanks to electric bikes. No need for car. One of the clients I've worked for had their office at an airport outside Amsterdam. On most days, I travelled by bike in 45m. > holiday destination Holiday destinations tend to be in rural places that are inconvenient to reach by public transport. If younhave a family, then a car is indeed ideal for these destinations. I find Amsterdam's center to be quite crowded if you're trying to raise a family. But smaller cities' centers don't have that much of a problem even for families. I do most of my grocery shopping either by walking or by bike. I only use the car if I have to buy a lot. Though quite a lot of people use their car for weekly grocery shopping.
- refurb 5y ago
  You’re niece commutes up to 45 min by bike to high school? So potentially 1.5hr per school day?
  - TomSwirly 5y ago
    90 minutes of exercise a day, how _terrible_ for the kids. I'm a Briton living in Amsterdam so let me be blunt - those pudgy fat kids you see all over Britain simply do not exist here. I'm 59, I bike everywhere, I've never been in such good shape, though the pandemic has been a drag for this.
    - refurb 5y ago
      I guess? But when I grew up we just walked 10 min to school. 45 min sounds horrible. What if the kid get sick? Parent take a 90 min to pick them up?
Muromec 5y ago
>If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school You don't. School is in walkable distance and kids can cycle themselves since the age of 8 or around. You also don't really live in a city center with kids. >If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. You take more smaller trips to grocery store which is also around the block, since cities are compact. >Are these things not problems in Dutch cities? No they aren't really. Life is possible without having a car, but a lot of people still do have them, just not for daily commute in and out of city center. New developments however have a cap on how many parking places a project can have. Like a project with 9 units (8 of which are family houses) is only alloweed to have 4 parking places and it's not even city center with scarce land, it's newly-build planned district on reclaimed land. Municipality is not strictly against cars, it's against the city being car-dependent and car-oriented.
- granshaw 5y ago
  > You don't. School is in walkable distance and kids can cycle themselves since the age of 8 or around. You also don't really live in a city center with kids. At first glance this seems contradictory – did you mean that there are schools within walkable distance, even though you're not living in the city center?
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Yes exactly. Schools are everywhere. Primary schools in particular, and for secondary the kids will know how to ride a bike
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Even for primary school age kids cycling is pretty normal. Mine have been doing it since they were about 6, and before then the bakfiets. When the weather is really evil we'll break out the carkey, but that only happens a couple of times per year, and since it isn't possible to reach all the way to the school that still isn't a real solution. But it saves them from being soaked and that's worth it. But 97% of the days it's bikes.
Sander_Marechal 5y ago
> If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? The places in the photos are mostly inner city centers. There aren't much family homes there. That said, most kids go to school by bike and often without the parents. So, no need to drop them off by car. If you live in an inner city center and want a car you can rent parking space, for example in the closest parking garage. I think the contrast with the UK is that our public transport and bike lanes are used very much. It makes sense to remove cars here because the space will actually used by people walking, biking, etc. We try to build walkable/livable cities. Most people live very close to a supermarket or small shopping center. No need for everyone to go to the city center for groceries or many other things. > I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. You don't buy those very often. For those you can still use your car. If you live in a car-free inner city zone you can usually still get to your house by car if you need to. Usually there are certain hours/days where destination traffic is allowed, or you can get a permit.
Improvotter 5y ago
I think this is due to how car dependent North America is. There are so many aspects that are missed in these pictures or what you are for example experiencing. It's not that you're situation is improving, it's most likely not. But that's not due to car independent cities being bad, it's because changing from being car dependent to car independent is hard and takes time. I would recommend you have a look at Not Just Bikes on YouTube, a Canadian that moved to the Netherlands. He talks about car independent cities in Europe, more specifically The Netherlands and compares it to car dependent North America. Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k. Regardless, I would recommend you check out a few other of his videos, most importantly his series on the US non profit organisation "Strong Towns": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ.... It think it's about sharing the message that placing public transport, cyclists, and pedestrians in the forefront is better for almost everyone involved, including drivers, and especially people who live in cities and towns.
- Muromec 5y ago
  >Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others Of course they are -- there is less traffic, since everybody doesn't have to be on the same road at the same time in most-inefficient mode of transport. If you want to have empty roads -- you better support public transport and bike infrastructure.
  - lbreakjai 5y ago
    That's not just that. Single lanes and one-way streets means that you don't have to fight for space with people lane-hopping and trying to get an extra meter farther ahead, slowing everyone else down in the process.
- ralferoo 5y ago
  I noticed in the year I lived in London how nice it was to never actually use my car, even though it did move to London with me. Obviously, London is very much not a car-free zone, but the public transportation is sufficient that a car isn't needed, and driving is generally such a frustrating experience that you only do it when you have to, usually for getting out of the city and going somewhere else where you need the car.
bruce343434 5y ago
In my city there are a few designated "company parks" which are highway or provincial road -accessible "citadels" with a bunch of companies that specialize in large goods, rug stores, furniture, ikea, big box stores, hardware stores, bulk size corporate supermarkets, that sort of thing.
em500 5y ago
> I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike? I live in Amsterdam, as a carless family in a reasonably affluent neighbourhood (not in the city centre). I'd guesstimate that 1/3 to 1/2 of the families in our child's classmates don't own a car. AFAICT every neighbourhood has a few primary schools within walking or cycling distance. (I can reach 3 within 15min walking or 5min cycling.) Anecdotally, it seems roughly 10-20% of the kids are bought by private car (more when the weather is bad). I think for most of those, the parents head straight to work afterwards. Starting age 10 or so, pretty much all kids walk or cycle themselves (between 5 and 10 most of them do so under adult supervision). For holiday destinations reachable by car we rent one, maybe once or twice a year. > On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities? We do groceries in person every day or every other day, often on our way to/from school. I can reach 3 supermarkets within 5 minutes cycling. For larger furniture, home delivery is usually more convenient, though occasionally I'd take the street parked shared cars (which are around €30 for 3 hours).
3uler 5y ago
It’s hard to explain what a revelation Dutch Urban planning has been to me since I’ve moved here. When you have protected bike lanes literally everywhere you go and riding you bike is always the quickest way to get from A to B for any journey less than 3 km (faster than driving, faster than public transport). > I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, You don’t, you take them in your bakfiets (cargo bike) or they cycle themselves > or to a holiday destination, etc? You rent a car? It’s actually easier to drive in a Dutch city than other cities because everyone is not reliant on a car for literally every journey they make, people only use cars when they need to you can still drive cars on the streets, the streets are just not built for cars 1st. > Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike? I would say having to own a car to live in a city is far more anti-working-class than making a city completely livable without the need for a car. I highly recommend watching the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes to get a better understanding of just how brilliant the urban planning is. https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A
dionidium 5y ago
> The constant removal of roads and introduction of clean air areas in recent years has made his commute very difficult now. Western cities in the 20th century ignored all the tradeoffs presented by cars, so that any time there was a conflict of interests cars simply won. Every time. Of course, the tradeoffs didn't go away. We just declared cars the winner in every case. A re-evaluation of those priorities is going to necessarily mean driving gets marginally harder, because there was no other direction for it to go. Cars were given every single affordance for 100 years. Anything in the opposite direction is going to look like a loss. Frankly, I doubt that driving in your area is actually all that difficult. You're just used to being prioritized and now you're experiencing a modicum of de-prioritization. You're used to rolling up to your destination and parking directly in front for free. Now that you're being asked to pay some of the actual costs of that convenience, it looks like a burden. You're used to cars being allowed everywhere, no matter the cost to the people who live in those areas you formerly breezed through, and now that they aren't, it looks unfair. When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression, as they say.
globular-toast 5y ago
> how do you drive your kids to school You don't. Please just listen to yourself. Children are more than capable of locomotion. Why would you need to drive them anywhere? > Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy Inhospitable? Do you mean unaffordable? That's not really the same thing. Them not being affordable is a separate problem. Houses in desirable cities have all been bought up by landlords decades ago at this point. It's essentially impossible to buy a house in many cities in the UK. You have to rent. I don't like it, but it has nothing to do with town planning.
Scarblac 5y ago
We have access to cars, virtually all families have one. It's just not needed as often. Kids walk or cycle to school. Groceries can be done on bicycle. There is good public transport. But I'm quite sure the majority of the people still commute to work by car.
Isinlor 5y ago
Here is a primary school in winter, in Oulu, Finland, close to Arctic circle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=72s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=72s 200 000 people live there, and in January, during polar twilight their daily average temperature is −8C (17F) and 50% school trips are on bikes.

by kypro 5y ago

TomSwirly 5y ago

Public transportation is good here, which is the answer to most of your questions. > now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Why don't you bike or take the bus, then? > If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Before the pandemic, we did it entirely on bike. On the other hand, Dutch cities are designed differently, where markets are interspersed with the housing itself. In fact, we used to just walk to the supermarket about 200m away, but then a bigger version of that supermarket opened up 5 minutes bike ride away, so... Checkout is super-fast - shopping is so fast many people go every day, if only to get fresh bread. When I lived in New York, we would have one big shop once a week, it was such a chore. ---- In your world, we all drive cars and destroy our biosphere. Is that really what you want for your children?

isoprophlex 5y ago

About managing this as a family: get a cargo bike, optionally electrically powered. Moves 2-3 young kids, or groceries.

hexo 5y ago
Oh yea, in my country, the cargo bike is about 6x-8x more expensive than oldie car
- Muromec 5y ago
  It's something around 5k Euro for a new one and it's not really a car replacement. It's a fancy toy for somewhat rich people who also have a car. Cars just are not allowed to some nice places (like a dedicated cycling path on a dijk) and also are not really fun. I have seen more cargo bikes with two or three kids in them on some kind of recreational road then I seen parked near grocery store. For groceries, you just have bike bags. To drops kids at school or daycare, you have kid seats on a normal bicycle (one on a front and one on a back).
  - isoprophlex 5y ago
    Yeah agreed, it's not the best (most egalitarian) solution... limited only to people with plenty of disposable income.
  - LeonidasXIV 5y ago
    A new cargobike (Christianiacycel) costs 1.5k Euro in Denmark, which is certainly not known for being cheap, so unless you buy a crazy luxury cargo bike you can get like 3 of those for < 5k. And probably much cheaper if you go second-hand. And yes, there's plenty of these on the streets, not only owned by rich people.
    - Muromec 5y ago
      Sure, 5k is Urban Arrow which is electric and arguably luxury.
    - 5y ago

y7 5y ago

> how do you drive your kids to school You use a bicycle. There are cargo bikes or bike seats. From age 7 or so they can be on their own bike and you can cycle alongside them. After a few more years, they can go on their own.

kypro 5y ago
Never heard of a cargo bike before, but that's a nice solution. Wouldn't mind one of those for trips to the local shops myself.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  There are lots of versions, and some of the manufacturers ship overseas or have representatives overseas or in other European countries.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

>I do wonder how this works for families? It's marginally harder. They make do, the ones majorly affected by the slight change in margin go elsewhere. Same as with every other quality of life issue. Look at the incentives. Large organizations with diffuse responsibility (e.g. government) don't have values other than following the incentives. Families and seniors suck up tons of the city's social services budget and don't engage in much taxable activity per capita. The incentives are there for the city to want them gone and there is no incentive for the city to not to things that make them want to leave. The counter incentive that applies to all the people (politicians, bureaucrats, etc,) in the system but not to the system as a whole is the incentive not to do anything too terrible or mean spirited and society likes families and doesn't want to harm them. That's what causes things to reach some semblance of an equilibrium.

jacquesm 5y ago
Have you lived in NL?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Have you worked in government? (I'll settle for a comparably silo'd government adjacent BigCo).
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    What kind of non-relevant answer is that? I asked you a polite and to the point question.
    - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
      > What kind of non-relevant answer is that? >I asked you a polite and to the point question. We're all capable of reading between the lines here. You asked the question because a more snide "tell me you've never lived in NL without telling me you lived in NL" or "yikes" doesn't fly here so you phrase it as a question (just like asking the question wouldn't fly elsewhere where the local norms are to be snide or offensive). I say "no" you use that as justification for saying I have no idea what I'm talking about. I say yes and you assert my experience is not relevant or whip out a No True Scotsman. It's just a bunch of BS rhetoric that serves as a barrier to whatever the actual disagreement and debate is. If my knowledge is so far off base, from lack of experience or otherwise then this should be a short debate. Do you disagree with my analysis on the incentives that cause government policy that makes life marginally more difficult for families to be formed? It appears you disagree with some part of it, so which part and how and why? And for the record I've lived there for months but not in a major urban area and not raising a family. Edit: edited to answer his question.

jacquesm 5y ago

It works very well, but it is much easier to experience it than to talk about it.

FooBarWidget 5y ago

> how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? The Netherlands is densely populated enough that you can often walk to primary school. Mine is located about 300 meters away, with another primary school about 1 km away. I used to walk by myself without parent supervision. Secondary high (middle school + high school are one single entity here) are fewer in number so that's when kids start needing bikes. Many kids can bike to school in 30m, but I had classmates who lived in some nearby village and biked for an hour. My niece in Amsterdam bikes for about 35-45m depending on school location (they have multiple) and biking speed. She takes public transport (tram and metro) on rainy days but door to door commute time is the same. These days, long bike commutes from villages could probably be more comfortable thanks to electric bikes. No need for car. One of the clients I've worked for had their office at an airport outside Amsterdam. On most days, I travelled by bike in 45m. > holiday destination Holiday destinations tend to be in rural places that are inconvenient to reach by public transport. If younhave a family, then a car is indeed ideal for these destinations. I find Amsterdam's center to be quite crowded if you're trying to raise a family. But smaller cities' centers don't have that much of a problem even for families. I do most of my grocery shopping either by walking or by bike. I only use the car if I have to buy a lot. Though quite a lot of people use their car for weekly grocery shopping.

refurb 5y ago
You’re niece commutes up to 45 min by bike to high school? So potentially 1.5hr per school day?
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  90 minutes of exercise a day, how _terrible_ for the kids. I'm a Briton living in Amsterdam so let me be blunt - those pudgy fat kids you see all over Britain simply do not exist here. I'm 59, I bike everywhere, I've never been in such good shape, though the pandemic has been a drag for this.
  - refurb 5y ago
    I guess? But when I grew up we just walked 10 min to school. 45 min sounds horrible. What if the kid get sick? Parent take a 90 min to pick them up?

Muromec 5y ago

>If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school You don't. School is in walkable distance and kids can cycle themselves since the age of 8 or around. You also don't really live in a city center with kids. >If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. You take more smaller trips to grocery store which is also around the block, since cities are compact. >Are these things not problems in Dutch cities? No they aren't really. Life is possible without having a car, but a lot of people still do have them, just not for daily commute in and out of city center. New developments however have a cap on how many parking places a project can have. Like a project with 9 units (8 of which are family houses) is only alloweed to have 4 parking places and it's not even city center with scarce land, it's newly-build planned district on reclaimed land. Municipality is not strictly against cars, it's against the city being car-dependent and car-oriented.

granshaw 5y ago
> You don't. School is in walkable distance and kids can cycle themselves since the age of 8 or around. You also don't really live in a city center with kids. At first glance this seems contradictory – did you mean that there are schools within walkable distance, even though you're not living in the city center?
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  Yes exactly. Schools are everywhere. Primary schools in particular, and for secondary the kids will know how to ride a bike
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Even for primary school age kids cycling is pretty normal. Mine have been doing it since they were about 6, and before then the bakfiets. When the weather is really evil we'll break out the carkey, but that only happens a couple of times per year, and since it isn't possible to reach all the way to the school that still isn't a real solution. But it saves them from being soaked and that's worth it. But 97% of the days it's bikes.

Sander_Marechal 5y ago

> If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? The places in the photos are mostly inner city centers. There aren't much family homes there. That said, most kids go to school by bike and often without the parents. So, no need to drop them off by car. If you live in an inner city center and want a car you can rent parking space, for example in the closest parking garage. I think the contrast with the UK is that our public transport and bike lanes are used very much. It makes sense to remove cars here because the space will actually used by people walking, biking, etc. We try to build walkable/livable cities. Most people live very close to a supermarket or small shopping center. No need for everyone to go to the city center for groceries or many other things. > I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. You don't buy those very often. For those you can still use your car. If you live in a car-free inner city zone you can usually still get to your house by car if you need to. Usually there are certain hours/days where destination traffic is allowed, or you can get a permit.

Improvotter 5y ago

I think this is due to how car dependent North America is. There are so many aspects that are missed in these pictures or what you are for example experiencing. It's not that you're situation is improving, it's most likely not. But that's not due to car independent cities being bad, it's because changing from being car dependent to car independent is hard and takes time. I would recommend you have a look at Not Just Bikes on YouTube, a Canadian that moved to the Netherlands. He talks about car independent cities in Europe, more specifically The Netherlands and compares it to car dependent North America. Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8RRE2rDw4k. Regardless, I would recommend you check out a few other of his videos, most importantly his series on the US non profit organisation "Strong Towns": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ0_FCUbeVWK6OGLN69ehUTVa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_SXXTBypIg&list=PLJp5q-R0lZ.... It think it's about sharing the message that placing public transport, cyclists, and pedestrians in the forefront is better for almost everyone involved, including drivers, and especially people who live in cities and towns.

Muromec 5y ago
>Here is a video that talks about how these "car independent" countries are still the best to drive in compared to others Of course they are -- there is less traffic, since everybody doesn't have to be on the same road at the same time in most-inefficient mode of transport. If you want to have empty roads -- you better support public transport and bike infrastructure.
- lbreakjai 5y ago
  That's not just that. Single lanes and one-way streets means that you don't have to fight for space with people lane-hopping and trying to get an extra meter farther ahead, slowing everyone else down in the process.
ralferoo 5y ago
I noticed in the year I lived in London how nice it was to never actually use my car, even though it did move to London with me. Obviously, London is very much not a car-free zone, but the public transportation is sufficient that a car isn't needed, and driving is generally such a frustrating experience that you only do it when you have to, usually for getting out of the city and going somewhere else where you need the car.

bruce343434 5y ago

In my city there are a few designated "company parks" which are highway or provincial road -accessible "citadels" with a bunch of companies that specialize in large goods, rug stores, furniture, ikea, big box stores, hardware stores, bulk size corporate supermarkets, that sort of thing.

em500 5y ago

> I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, or to a holiday destination, etc? Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike? I live in Amsterdam, as a carless family in a reasonably affluent neighbourhood (not in the city centre). I'd guesstimate that 1/3 to 1/2 of the families in our child's classmates don't own a car. AFAICT every neighbourhood has a few primary schools within walking or cycling distance. (I can reach 3 within 15min walking or 5min cycling.) Anecdotally, it seems roughly 10-20% of the kids are bought by private car (more when the weather is bad). I think for most of those, the parents head straight to work afterwards. Starting age 10 or so, pretty much all kids walk or cycle themselves (between 5 and 10 most of them do so under adult supervision). For holiday destinations reachable by car we rent one, maybe once or twice a year. > On another note I also used shop in my city centre regularly, but in the last 5 or so years I've started ordering most things from Amazon instead, not because I want to, but because it takes about an hour to get into the city now that they've removed several roads in favour of mostly unused bike and bus lanes. Plus, parking is increasingly hard and costs several pounds an hour these days. Sure, I could catch a bus, but that only really works if you're not buying much. I can't exactly carry a new desk or dinning room chair on a bus. I wonder if this is the reason that city centres seem to be increasingly filled with restaurants and lack shops other than a few convince stores? If I lived in a city I'm not even sure how I would do my weekly family shop without access to a car. Again, I guess I would need to order it online? Are these things not problems in Dutch cities? We do groceries in person every day or every other day, often on our way to/from school. I can reach 3 supermarkets within 5 minutes cycling. For larger furniture, home delivery is usually more convenient, though occasionally I'd take the street parked shared cars (which are around €30 for 3 hours).

3uler 5y ago

It’s hard to explain what a revelation Dutch Urban planning has been to me since I’ve moved here. When you have protected bike lanes literally everywhere you go and riding you bike is always the quickest way to get from A to B for any journey less than 3 km (faster than driving, faster than public transport). > I do wonder how this works for families? If you have a nice 4 bed family home in a Dutch city, how do you drive your kids to school, You don’t, you take them in your bakfiets (cargo bike) or they cycle themselves > or to a holiday destination, etc? You rent a car? It’s actually easier to drive in a Dutch city than other cities because everyone is not reliant on a car for literally every journey they make, people only use cars when they need to you can still drive cars on the streets, the streets are just not built for cars 1st. > Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy so can therefore afford a flat close enough to their office that they can bike? I would say having to own a car to live in a city is far more anti-working-class than making a city completely livable without the need for a car. I highly recommend watching the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes to get a better understanding of just how brilliant the urban planning is. https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC0intLFzLaudFG-xAvUEO-A

dionidium 5y ago

> The constant removal of roads and introduction of clean air areas in recent years has made his commute very difficult now. Western cities in the 20th century ignored all the tradeoffs presented by cars, so that any time there was a conflict of interests cars simply won. Every time. Of course, the tradeoffs didn't go away. We just declared cars the winner in every case. A re-evaluation of those priorities is going to necessarily mean driving gets marginally harder, because there was no other direction for it to go. Cars were given every single affordance for 100 years. Anything in the opposite direction is going to look like a loss. Frankly, I doubt that driving in your area is actually all that difficult. You're just used to being prioritized and now you're experiencing a modicum of de-prioritization. You're used to rolling up to your destination and parking directly in front for free. Now that you're being asked to pay some of the actual costs of that convenience, it looks like a burden. You're used to cars being allowed everywhere, no matter the cost to the people who live in those areas you formerly breezed through, and now that they aren't, it looks unfair. When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression, as they say.

globular-toast 5y ago

> how do you drive your kids to school You don't. Please just listen to yourself. Children are more than capable of locomotion. Why would you need to drive them anywhere? > Is it anything like here in the UK where cities are increasingly inhospitable for working class people trying to raise families and only really work for students or those who are single and wealthy Inhospitable? Do you mean unaffordable? That's not really the same thing. Them not being affordable is a separate problem. Houses in desirable cities have all been bought up by landlords decades ago at this point. It's essentially impossible to buy a house in many cities in the UK. You have to rent. I don't like it, but it has nothing to do with town planning.

Scarblac 5y ago

We have access to cars, virtually all families have one. It's just not needed as often. Kids walk or cycle to school. Groceries can be done on bicycle. There is good public transport. But I'm quite sure the majority of the people still commute to work by car.

Isinlor 5y ago

Here is a primary school in winter, in Oulu, Finland, close to Arctic circle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=72s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU&t=72s 200 000 people live there, and in January, during polar twilight their daily average temperature is −8C (17F) and 50% school trips are on bikes.