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I wonder just _who_ were those people making those awful, awful plans. Were they being poisoned by lead? How do they live with themselves.

by watt 5y ago

pelasaco 5y ago
I think no government is perfect. Probably the people making those awful plans, look now to Netherlands and think about other problems. Maybe people responsible for https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-netherlands-the-slippery-dutch-slope-from-drug-tolerance-to-drug-terror-a-4c064859-9faf-495f-b1f7-c74900910568 https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-neth... will have problem to live with themselves because of that in the future too..
Arnt 5y ago
Someone who might well have met some of those planners once said that "the advantages of privately owned cars are mostly individual, the disadvantages are mostly communal". AIUI in the sixties, city planners in many places tried to bring those advantages to more individuals within their societies. And how do they live with themselves? Well, they were mostly the same people who planned the traffic changes in .nl from the seventies onwards, so I imagine they're mostly quite happy.
mpol 5y ago
It was the new way of thinking. Concrete buildings were modern, old stuff was just old stuff. There was no real insight in what highways would mean, it was all new. In Zwolle similar stuff happened. They tore down an old church for a square concrete building (V & D) and there were plans to have the highway run through the historic centre, which was seen as good for the shops. Luckily that highway was diverted to 100m next to the historic centre. That mayor is now known as the "sloopburgemeester" or "tear down mayor". It is hard to predict the future, but luckily there is now more thought put into which buildings to preserve. But even then I wonder what whill happen to the ugly buildings of the 1960s, will they all be torn apart, or are there some that we already can see as valuable.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  And V&D went bust...
- clydethefrog 5y ago
  There is fairly sombering website highlighting all the churches that were demolished during these decades in the Netherlands. Often the reason was "stadsvernieuwing" (urban renewal) and at the location of the church, the contemporary church for capitalism would arise - a shopping mall. http://www.mooistegeslooptekerk.nl/ http://www.mooistegeslooptekerk.nl/
- JackFr 5y ago
  It’s very difficult to know what will be valued in the future. In NYC, the World Trade Center was often thought of as an architectural abomination. Two boxes stood on end without soul or character. Once they were gone however (notwithstanding how they were taken down) people had to admit they did have a unique character and were representative of a time and a place. Again in NYC, the beautiful old Penn Station was destroyed to be replaced soulless office towers and a “modern” sports arena. Train travelers were reduced to a rats nest of a filthy underground station. When the developers came for Grand Central Station the public responded with a hearty “NO!” and it was able to be saved. And yet Penn Station does about double the ridership of Grand Central (and according to Wikipedia is the busiest transport hub in the Western Hemisphere.) I guess my point is, we’re all trying to do our best — including city planners past and present — and as times change we should endeavor to continue, but cut some slack to the planners of the past and hope those of the future will do likewise with us.
zachkatz 5y ago
Read The Power Broker. It was Robert Moses who invented the idea of ramming highways through cities, and he did a brilliant job of selling urban planners around the world on his vision (he would wine and dine them at his mansion, for instance).
- kqr 5y ago
  Another great book on the same subject is The Death and Life of American Cities. City planning is about managing the interactions of complex functions. It is surprisingly relevant to software engineers!
- TomSwirly 5y ago
  I hated The Power Broker. It's brilliant, but Robert Moses was SO awful I was grinding my teeth. Must read, really. But only the once.
kieckerjan 5y ago
Actually for Amsterdam there is a well known example: traffic expert David A. Jokinen, partly funded by the car lobby group Stichting Weg, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokinen_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokinen_Plan Fortunately his plans never came to much because of fierce opposition. They are representative of a certain way of thinking at the time though.

I wonder just _who_ were those people making those awful, awful plans. Were they being poisoned by lead? How do they live with themselves.

by watt 5y ago

I wonder just _who_ were those people making those awful, awful plans. Were they being poisoned by lead? How do they live with themselves.

pelasaco 5y ago

I think no government is perfect. Probably the people making those awful plans, look now to Netherlands and think about other problems. Maybe people responsible for https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-netherlands-the-slippery-dutch-slope-from-drug-tolerance-to-drug-terror-a-4c064859-9faf-495f-b1f7-c74900910568 https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/narco-state-neth... will have problem to live with themselves because of that in the future too..

Arnt 5y ago

Someone who might well have met some of those planners once said that "the advantages of privately owned cars are mostly individual, the disadvantages are mostly communal". AIUI in the sixties, city planners in many places tried to bring those advantages to more individuals within their societies. And how do they live with themselves? Well, they were mostly the same people who planned the traffic changes in .nl from the seventies onwards, so I imagine they're mostly quite happy.

mpol 5y ago

It was the new way of thinking. Concrete buildings were modern, old stuff was just old stuff. There was no real insight in what highways would mean, it was all new. In Zwolle similar stuff happened. They tore down an old church for a square concrete building (V & D) and there were plans to have the highway run through the historic centre, which was seen as good for the shops. Luckily that highway was diverted to 100m next to the historic centre. That mayor is now known as the "sloopburgemeester" or "tear down mayor". It is hard to predict the future, but luckily there is now more thought put into which buildings to preserve. But even then I wonder what whill happen to the ugly buildings of the 1960s, will they all be torn apart, or are there some that we already can see as valuable.

jacquesm 5y ago
And V&D went bust...
clydethefrog 5y ago
There is fairly sombering website highlighting all the churches that were demolished during these decades in the Netherlands. Often the reason was "stadsvernieuwing" (urban renewal) and at the location of the church, the contemporary church for capitalism would arise - a shopping mall. http://www.mooistegeslooptekerk.nl/ http://www.mooistegeslooptekerk.nl/
JackFr 5y ago
It’s very difficult to know what will be valued in the future. In NYC, the World Trade Center was often thought of as an architectural abomination. Two boxes stood on end without soul or character. Once they were gone however (notwithstanding how they were taken down) people had to admit they did have a unique character and were representative of a time and a place. Again in NYC, the beautiful old Penn Station was destroyed to be replaced soulless office towers and a “modern” sports arena. Train travelers were reduced to a rats nest of a filthy underground station. When the developers came for Grand Central Station the public responded with a hearty “NO!” and it was able to be saved. And yet Penn Station does about double the ridership of Grand Central (and according to Wikipedia is the busiest transport hub in the Western Hemisphere.) I guess my point is, we’re all trying to do our best — including city planners past and present — and as times change we should endeavor to continue, but cut some slack to the planners of the past and hope those of the future will do likewise with us.

zachkatz 5y ago

Read The Power Broker. It was Robert Moses who invented the idea of ramming highways through cities, and he did a brilliant job of selling urban planners around the world on his vision (he would wine and dine them at his mansion, for instance).

kqr 5y ago
Another great book on the same subject is The Death and Life of American Cities. City planning is about managing the interactions of complex functions. It is surprisingly relevant to software engineers!
TomSwirly 5y ago
I hated The Power Broker. It's brilliant, but Robert Moses was SO awful I was grinding my teeth. Must read, really. But only the once.

kieckerjan 5y ago

Actually for Amsterdam there is a well known example: traffic expert David A. Jokinen, partly funded by the car lobby group Stichting Weg, cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokinen_Plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokinen_Plan Fortunately his plans never came to much because of fierce opposition. They are representative of a certain way of thinking at the time though.