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While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance and not because of how your unconscious mind impacts/limits your experience of life, I took the a

While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance and not because of how your unconscious mind impacts/limits your experience of life, I took the approach that exploring my subconscious through therapy was the way to get out. For me it worked very well and I think the journey is an amazing one to go on. Building from the ground up and understanding all the foundations within. I always wonder about treatments which don't have this benefit, although the results in terms of lifestyle change sound extremely positive. One of the hardest parts of therapy is diagnosis of what to work on. Even though an issue will be "presenting" itself clearly, it can often be a bit of a decoy. For example, a lack of self-esteem is often a useful derivative of an unconscious fear of upsetting others. Low self-esteem => avoid situations/behaviours that upset others. During therapy I found dreams, when analysed outside of the "conventional" Freudian/Jungian frameworks provided a simple and accurate method of reaching the root diagnosis (the fear of upsetting others vs. the decoy issue of low self-esteem). I got a bit obsessed by the topic and wrote a paper on it which can be downloaded here: https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz https://psyarxiv.com/k6trz And was discussed on HN here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19143590

agumonkey 5y ago
There are a few psychological constructs in our head that really tie deep into the mental pain I forgot who i saw recently that said we have a strong mirroring need in our brain, which means our happiness is extremely relative, if you suffer while people don't .. it hurts more; if people are in the same boat the pain gets softer. Oh and yeah unconscious fears are often the root of so many mental issues.. abandoning (to) fears is often a massive trick.
- FailMore 5y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean when you say abandon (to) fears. But my experience was that when I could pinpoint the fear, overcoming it by facing it was the way out. Often as infants we develop legitimate fears in the context of our vulnerable position and extreme dependency on maintaining the parental relationship. These fears made sense then and helped us keep our parents calm, but interrupt our adult lives. These fears are also extremely powerful as our infant brain associates breaking them with a risk of death (typically through abandonment). However, the brain seems to be remarkably fast at unlearning these fears when it realises they no longer are needed (I will not die/risk death by doing the "forbidden action"). So my experience was that pinpointing the fear, facing it in my life (perhaps initially in the context of the safe relationship with my therapist, and then outside in the "real world"), and watching my anxious reactions which were previously flared up in situations where I was avoiding the forbidden behaviour fade away. It leads to a calmer mind with fewer and fewer situations in daily life which cause anxiety to arise.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    It was a poetic wording that popped into my mind a times. The image of abandoning all defensive reflexes and walking into whatever context you were afraid of and see how it feels. There's a tendency to avoid seeking reality and stay in fearful predictions based on limited data that we gathered. All this is probably close (if not same as) CBT. And Yoda :) That said I often fail to do so. But I used to never try at all.
  - Brunni 5y ago
    Curiosity: what if you've done so and your fears have been reinforced instead? Background: after a difficult childhood, I did a therapy, discovered self improvement and lived a few years where I faced fears regularly and expanded massively. However, multiple debatable decisions built up to a point where everything broke down. Lost my job, hoped on 3 jobs even worse afterwards, was morally harassed, and the resulting bad mood and general negativity made me lose friends, and be even more vulnerable. Loss of confidence made me sabotage more or less voluntarily other aspects of my health, balance and projects. Therapists, SSRI, etc. no way to get out of it (just lots of money taken away => even more pressure/problems). It felt like death since I had to go through these many years, helpless, hopeless. It was worth than any experience in my childhood, and still traumatizing. Now, the absence of "death" at an instant t when doing a "dangerous" action doesn't mean that death can't come later as a consequence (ex. tell your opinion at work -> doesn't kill you but if it leads to be fired later and start a cycle like above, it can be dangerous). Therefore there's never validation that my actions don't kill, they're just written on a list, with consequences pending, and the fear of the ultimate judgment is impossible to confront, unless it all happens again and this time I manage it. How would you confront this kind of fears?
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      Sorry you had to endure this. It's true that adult life is wide and chaotic and you can slowly end up in a black hole situation. A bed room theory is live small and grow through tiny risks. Small means your life is easier to secure and you can try stuff and fallback as soon as something goes wrong. It's only a theory, that came up through the realization that a lot of pain comes from bad obligations. Too much mortgage, obligation to stay in a toxic job. Also contexts too large to really know if what you can do or not (such as politics at work).
- boffinAudio 5y ago
  > There are a few psychological constructs in our head that really tie deep into the mental pain Indeed, one of those is the 'chemical imbalance' theory of depression, which in itself can lead to a person believing there is no hope because they just are a bag of chemicals. The way out of this particular conundrum is as the OP stated - therapy which addresses the cause of the imbalance, which has every indication of being an effect of the depression, rather than the direct cause. Change your mind through therapy and non-physical means, then watch the bag of chemicals transform...
  - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
    > which in itself can lead to a person believing there is no hope because they just are a bag of chemicals. I'd expect the opposite effect. If we are bags of chemicals, we can change ourselves by altering the composition of chemicals. The hard part is finding the proper balance.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    It may not be as simple, i had pills that did influence chemistry (first take was a surprising experience.. feeling your nervous system shift toward mellow was strange). But mental construct of loss were still causing pain as high as before.
  - jjeaff 5y ago
    So, what type of therapy should one seek out if they get severe depression for a week or so every month, always during their period? If the "theory" that depression can be caused by chemical or hormonal imbalances is wrong, then what externality is causing such severe depressive swings on such a regular basis, like clockwork? What "mindset" should a pregnant mother with a history of post partum depression put herself in so that she doesn't feel depressed even after everything goes great and she has a perfect baby and all the support she needs?
neuroma 5y ago
Great Post, thank you for sharing. I do take issue with the commonly parroted claim that depression can be a chemical imbalance. It's a notion arising from pharma marketing psyops, and is largely without utility. It even risks being an antipattern. The few pros include separating responsibility and thus alleviating some guilt, which often coexists with depression, and annoying spiritualists. Tell me if I missed any. Analogy: if I told you an athlete is different to a couch potato because of chemical imbalance, you'd think I was obtuse. While technically correct on some level that explanation obfuscates useful relational information about training, motivation, routine, mindset, culture, and circumstance. Similarly if I told you to become an athlete by only taking supplements that augment the phospho creatinine ATP pathway, you'd think me a crook. Oversimplifications sell pills and make for memorable catch phrases, but fall short of empowering us to become happy and well. Let's try and move our collective understanding beyond chemical imbalance; it's a tired mantra with scant utility. Disclosure: neuro psych doctor
- serverlessmom 5y ago
  I agree with you that there is definitely some serious obfuscation around the chemical imbalance aspect of the biological theory approach to mental disorder. If you do any research into the history of anti-depressants it isn't hard to uncover that there has been a lot of questionable science that forms the foundation of the over prescribing of medications for mental disorder that is currently the industry norm. I spent years suffering with really severe symptoms and I was so desperate for relief I tried all sorts of treatments. The main thing I really learned during that time is that approaching mental health requires a holistic approach, but even armed with that knowledge my life was still seriously impacted by my mental disorder. For me, I had spent years in talk therapy and different behavioral therapies. I had also tried various medications which did not help me and/or had side effects that were unbearable long term. I was on lamictal for a while which seemed to help but I also stopped seeing improvements and eventually that was also not good enough and my function declined. I also tried meditation, spiritualism, self medication, yoga, exercise, different diets, journaling. I took class after class on psychology and I instituted all sorts of different systems to try to fix myself. My therapist told me over and over that I was doing the work but that the improvements we were seeing weren't what she would expect, then I was referred to TMS. Once again, I was desperate and I was willing to do or try pretty much anything because I was a wreck of a person that was spiraling dangerously. So I went, and for the first time about three weeks in... I started to see a small difference. It changed my life, and I'm still so much better. The thing about how well it worked for me though is this: the idea of TMS is that it targets the part of your brain that is damaged by depression. Whatever this means- I've come to imagine it as neurons that have formed hard wired patterns of depression that are nearly impossible to rewire through sheer force of will. So chemical imbalance- probably (even demonstrably)false. Physical patterns in the brain formed while you suffered from depression being very difficult to rewire without outer interference? Is that possible? I'm mostly thinking out loud and I don't really expect someone to just have the answer but I really want to know and it's something I wonder about constantly.
halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
I want to echo this. I spent many years in therapy getting to the root of my issues stemming from childhood. It was the most fantastic and arduous experience I’ve ever done. Therapy helps cultivate self awareness which in turn strengthens inner dialog and allows you to reflect on yourself, almost in third person. It’s a shame our society stigmatizes therapy to such an extent but it really is a miracle cure for many mental health issues if you put the work in.
samirillian 5y ago
I agree about dreams, but I don't know that Jung was quite so prescriptive; he tends to eschew frameworks himself. He essentially says about dreams: we don't know why they work, but they do.
- dwringer 5y ago
  From my limited readings I think you are correct, Jung's technique seems very dissimilar to Freud's. AFAIU Jung emphasized that the terminology used unconsciously by the patient in first describing a dream contained most if not all material from which to derive potential theraputic benefit, and that dwelling on some deeper meaning or symbolism was generally a waste of time as then the patient (or therapist!) begins seeing what they want to see.
dpweb 5y ago
I think the main problem we view depression as a disease when it is a symptom with several possible causes. Most people I know haven't done the deep introspection when life circumstances or past in some cases preverbal traumas exist. Additionally, we're generally told quite a lot of lies and made to believe fantasies from the earliest ages about - the world, who we are, and our place in the world. I have a theory and it's just a theory when we get misaligned with certain, let's call them, cosmic truths - there's a mind and body reaction, often outside of our conscious ability to recognize the problem.
- azth 5y ago
  > I think the main problem we view depression as a disease when it is a symptom with several possible causes. I agree. The fact that depression and mental illnesses highly correlate with lack of religion and rise of the secular nation is something that should be investigated more.
- throwaway24124 5y ago
  Do you mind expanding on your theory a bit? I think I agree with you.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
> While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance I'm still not convinced this is true. I think it is just as probable that any apparent "chemical imbalance" is actually a symptom, not the cause, and while treating the symptoms can alleviate some of the suffering it is not a cure.

agumonkey 5y ago

There are a few psychological constructs in our head that really tie deep into the mental pain I forgot who i saw recently that said we have a strong mirroring need in our brain, which means our happiness is extremely relative, if you suffer while people don't .. it hurts more; if people are in the same boat the pain gets softer. Oh and yeah unconscious fears are often the root of so many mental issues.. abandoning (to) fears is often a massive trick.

FailMore 5y ago
I'm not sure what you mean when you say abandon (to) fears. But my experience was that when I could pinpoint the fear, overcoming it by facing it was the way out. Often as infants we develop legitimate fears in the context of our vulnerable position and extreme dependency on maintaining the parental relationship. These fears made sense then and helped us keep our parents calm, but interrupt our adult lives. These fears are also extremely powerful as our infant brain associates breaking them with a risk of death (typically through abandonment). However, the brain seems to be remarkably fast at unlearning these fears when it realises they no longer are needed (I will not die/risk death by doing the "forbidden action"). So my experience was that pinpointing the fear, facing it in my life (perhaps initially in the context of the safe relationship with my therapist, and then outside in the "real world"), and watching my anxious reactions which were previously flared up in situations where I was avoiding the forbidden behaviour fade away. It leads to a calmer mind with fewer and fewer situations in daily life which cause anxiety to arise.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  It was a poetic wording that popped into my mind a times. The image of abandoning all defensive reflexes and walking into whatever context you were afraid of and see how it feels. There's a tendency to avoid seeking reality and stay in fearful predictions based on limited data that we gathered. All this is probably close (if not same as) CBT. And Yoda :) That said I often fail to do so. But I used to never try at all.
- Brunni 5y ago
  Curiosity: what if you've done so and your fears have been reinforced instead? Background: after a difficult childhood, I did a therapy, discovered self improvement and lived a few years where I faced fears regularly and expanded massively. However, multiple debatable decisions built up to a point where everything broke down. Lost my job, hoped on 3 jobs even worse afterwards, was morally harassed, and the resulting bad mood and general negativity made me lose friends, and be even more vulnerable. Loss of confidence made me sabotage more or less voluntarily other aspects of my health, balance and projects. Therapists, SSRI, etc. no way to get out of it (just lots of money taken away => even more pressure/problems). It felt like death since I had to go through these many years, helpless, hopeless. It was worth than any experience in my childhood, and still traumatizing. Now, the absence of "death" at an instant t when doing a "dangerous" action doesn't mean that death can't come later as a consequence (ex. tell your opinion at work -> doesn't kill you but if it leads to be fired later and start a cycle like above, it can be dangerous). Therefore there's never validation that my actions don't kill, they're just written on a list, with consequences pending, and the fear of the ultimate judgment is impossible to confront, unless it all happens again and this time I manage it. How would you confront this kind of fears?
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    Sorry you had to endure this. It's true that adult life is wide and chaotic and you can slowly end up in a black hole situation. A bed room theory is live small and grow through tiny risks. Small means your life is easier to secure and you can try stuff and fallback as soon as something goes wrong. It's only a theory, that came up through the realization that a lot of pain comes from bad obligations. Too much mortgage, obligation to stay in a toxic job. Also contexts too large to really know if what you can do or not (such as politics at work).
boffinAudio 5y ago
> There are a few psychological constructs in our head that really tie deep into the mental pain Indeed, one of those is the 'chemical imbalance' theory of depression, which in itself can lead to a person believing there is no hope because they just are a bag of chemicals. The way out of this particular conundrum is as the OP stated - therapy which addresses the cause of the imbalance, which has every indication of being an effect of the depression, rather than the direct cause. Change your mind through therapy and non-physical means, then watch the bag of chemicals transform...
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  > which in itself can lead to a person believing there is no hope because they just are a bag of chemicals. I'd expect the opposite effect. If we are bags of chemicals, we can change ourselves by altering the composition of chemicals. The hard part is finding the proper balance.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  It may not be as simple, i had pills that did influence chemistry (first take was a surprising experience.. feeling your nervous system shift toward mellow was strange). But mental construct of loss were still causing pain as high as before.
- jjeaff 5y ago
  So, what type of therapy should one seek out if they get severe depression for a week or so every month, always during their period? If the "theory" that depression can be caused by chemical or hormonal imbalances is wrong, then what externality is causing such severe depressive swings on such a regular basis, like clockwork? What "mindset" should a pregnant mother with a history of post partum depression put herself in so that she doesn't feel depressed even after everything goes great and she has a perfect baby and all the support she needs?

neuroma 5y ago

Great Post, thank you for sharing. I do take issue with the commonly parroted claim that depression can be a chemical imbalance. It's a notion arising from pharma marketing psyops, and is largely without utility. It even risks being an antipattern. The few pros include separating responsibility and thus alleviating some guilt, which often coexists with depression, and annoying spiritualists. Tell me if I missed any. Analogy: if I told you an athlete is different to a couch potato because of chemical imbalance, you'd think I was obtuse. While technically correct on some level that explanation obfuscates useful relational information about training, motivation, routine, mindset, culture, and circumstance. Similarly if I told you to become an athlete by only taking supplements that augment the phospho creatinine ATP pathway, you'd think me a crook. Oversimplifications sell pills and make for memorable catch phrases, but fall short of empowering us to become happy and well. Let's try and move our collective understanding beyond chemical imbalance; it's a tired mantra with scant utility. Disclosure: neuro psych doctor

serverlessmom 5y ago
I agree with you that there is definitely some serious obfuscation around the chemical imbalance aspect of the biological theory approach to mental disorder. If you do any research into the history of anti-depressants it isn't hard to uncover that there has been a lot of questionable science that forms the foundation of the over prescribing of medications for mental disorder that is currently the industry norm. I spent years suffering with really severe symptoms and I was so desperate for relief I tried all sorts of treatments. The main thing I really learned during that time is that approaching mental health requires a holistic approach, but even armed with that knowledge my life was still seriously impacted by my mental disorder. For me, I had spent years in talk therapy and different behavioral therapies. I had also tried various medications which did not help me and/or had side effects that were unbearable long term. I was on lamictal for a while which seemed to help but I also stopped seeing improvements and eventually that was also not good enough and my function declined. I also tried meditation, spiritualism, self medication, yoga, exercise, different diets, journaling. I took class after class on psychology and I instituted all sorts of different systems to try to fix myself. My therapist told me over and over that I was doing the work but that the improvements we were seeing weren't what she would expect, then I was referred to TMS. Once again, I was desperate and I was willing to do or try pretty much anything because I was a wreck of a person that was spiraling dangerously. So I went, and for the first time about three weeks in... I started to see a small difference. It changed my life, and I'm still so much better. The thing about how well it worked for me though is this: the idea of TMS is that it targets the part of your brain that is damaged by depression. Whatever this means- I've come to imagine it as neurons that have formed hard wired patterns of depression that are nearly impossible to rewire through sheer force of will. So chemical imbalance- probably (even demonstrably)false. Physical patterns in the brain formed while you suffered from depression being very difficult to rewire without outer interference? Is that possible? I'm mostly thinking out loud and I don't really expect someone to just have the answer but I really want to know and it's something I wonder about constantly.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago

I want to echo this. I spent many years in therapy getting to the root of my issues stemming from childhood. It was the most fantastic and arduous experience I’ve ever done. Therapy helps cultivate self awareness which in turn strengthens inner dialog and allows you to reflect on yourself, almost in third person. It’s a shame our society stigmatizes therapy to such an extent but it really is a miracle cure for many mental health issues if you put the work in.

samirillian 5y ago

I agree about dreams, but I don't know that Jung was quite so prescriptive; he tends to eschew frameworks himself. He essentially says about dreams: we don't know why they work, but they do.

dwringer 5y ago
From my limited readings I think you are correct, Jung's technique seems very dissimilar to Freud's. AFAIU Jung emphasized that the terminology used unconsciously by the patient in first describing a dream contained most if not all material from which to derive potential theraputic benefit, and that dwelling on some deeper meaning or symbolism was generally a waste of time as then the patient (or therapist!) begins seeing what they want to see.

dpweb 5y ago

I think the main problem we view depression as a disease when it is a symptom with several possible causes. Most people I know haven't done the deep introspection when life circumstances or past in some cases preverbal traumas exist. Additionally, we're generally told quite a lot of lies and made to believe fantasies from the earliest ages about - the world, who we are, and our place in the world. I have a theory and it's just a theory when we get misaligned with certain, let's call them, cosmic truths - there's a mind and body reaction, often outside of our conscious ability to recognize the problem.

azth 5y ago
> I think the main problem we view depression as a disease when it is a symptom with several possible causes. I agree. The fact that depression and mental illnesses highly correlate with lack of religion and rise of the secular nation is something that should be investigated more.
throwaway24124 5y ago
Do you mind expanding on your theory a bit? I think I agree with you.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago

> While depression can certainly be caused by chemical imbalance I'm still not convinced this is true. I think it is just as probable that any apparent "chemical imbalance" is actually a symptom, not the cause, and while treating the symptoms can alleviate some of the suffering it is not a cure.