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> None of this is about giving power back to individuals Artificial scarcity is the aspect of web3 that bothers me most. The web is all about abundance; reduc

by mch82 5y ago

> None of this is about giving power back to individuals Artificial scarcity is the aspect of web3 that bothers me most. The web is all about abundance; reducing the marginal cost of software and information to zero so as many people as possible can have access. It seems like web3 advocates seek to do the opposite and lock software and information inside the digital equivalent of diamond mines.

Karrot_Kream 5y ago
I've asked for this many times (though not here) and still haven't received a satisfactory answer, so I'm curious: who said any of this? Is there a single influential architect of the net or the web who believed this or is this something that was and is a politically aspirational goal by special interest groups like the GNU folks?
- mch82 5y ago
  One reference is “Free” by Chris Anderson, https://www.amazon.com/Free-Future-Radical-Chris-Anderson/dp/1401322905/ https://www.amazon.com/Free-Future-Radical-Chris-Anderson/dp... DHH has written about abundance as part of his approach to Rails, https://world.hey.com/dhh/i-won-t-let-you-pay-me-for-my-open-source-d7cf4568 https://world.hey.com/dhh/i-won-t-let-you-pay-me-for-my-open... The “Post-scarcity economy” article on Wikipedia lists a number of references, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy Generally, computing trends toward abundance. Computers are priced about the same, but do more each generation.
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    Right but none of these folks were associated with the origins of the net or the web at all. They're people who either inferred post-scarcity through trends they saw or wanted to apply an ideology to the net and the web. DHH is the only technical person in that list. The reason this distinction is important is because a lot of folks try to make the case that the ideological origins of computer networking were with an eye toward post-scarcity, but this seems incorrect to me. Instead it seems to be ideological anger that the internet is not supporting post-scarcity economics.
    - mch82 5y ago
      Tim Berners-Lee, “The Many Meanings of Open”, https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Open.html https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Open.html > “The World Wide Web turns 25 next year. We have come a long way, but we must all continue to push for these various forms of openness in the appropriate places. Only then can we ensure that the Web is for everyone.” While his essay doesn’t use the words “abundance” or “post-scarcity”, it gets pretty close. My guess is that the guy who gave the Internet away for free probably approaches technology from an abundance perspective. > “…but this seems incorrect to me.” I’m curious what has led you to the opinion these people are wrong? I’m interested to know about histories of the web that reflect a philosophy of scarcity.
      - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
        > While his essay doesn’t use the words “abundance” or “post-scarcity”, it gets pretty close. My guess is that the guy who gave the Internet away for free probably approaches technology from an abundance perspective. Thanks for that essay. I actually didn't see anything that got close to post scarcity. The only point that seemed to touch on it was the point about Open Access but it seemed to be closely scoped to academic work. > My guess is that the guy who gave the Internet away for free probably approaches technology from an abundance perspective. Maybe? Giving things away for free doesn't lead to a post-scarcity mindset. Not every person that donated to charity or volunteers with their time thinks the world can get there either. > I’m curious what has led you to the opinion these people are wrong? I’m interested to know about histories of the web that reflect a philosophy of scarcity. It's hard because a "philosophy of scarcity" is pretty ill-defined. As early as 2016 [1] Berners-Lee was pushing the W3C to standardize web payments. And HTTP status code 402 Payment Required was in the HTTP spec since at least RFC 2068 [2] in 1997. So at least since then someone thought that the internet would be used to facilitate payment. But that's enough uncertainty for me to comfortably say that the internet was not designed for (or even against) post scarcity in mind. Therefore there's no ideological connection between post-scarcity and the net or the web. [1]: https://www.w3.org/blog/wpwg/2016/12/16/web-payments-traction-in-2016-and-looking-ahead/ https://www.w3.org/blog/wpwg/2016/12/16/web-payments-tractio... [2]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2068 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2068
FireInsight 5y ago
Web3 has grown synonymous with blockchain. The things I really value in web3 are non-blockchain distributed systems. IPFS, Gun.js, heck, even BitTorrent could be considered web3. Most problems shouldn't be solved with blockchains. Crypto is what makes web3 artificially scarce.
- thraxil 5y ago
  I don't know about the others, but IPFS uses Filecoin, which is blockchain based.
  - dtonon 5y ago
    This is not exact. Filecoin is built on the top of IPFS! https://filecoin.io/build/ https://filecoin.io/build/
    - thraxil 5y ago
      Yes, but IMHO, IPFS without Filecoin doesn't really innovate in any meaningful way over previous CAS/DHT based distributed filesystems (Freenet, Tahoe-LAFS, etc). Filecoin lets IPFS claim that they have at least tried to solve the freeloader problem and incentivized people to actually store strangers' encrypted data long term.

by mch82 5y ago

Karrot_Kream 5y ago

I've asked for this many times (though not here) and still haven't received a satisfactory answer, so I'm curious: who said any of this? Is there a single influential architect of the net or the web who believed this or is this something that was and is a politically aspirational goal by special interest groups like the GNU folks?

mch82 5y ago
One reference is “Free” by Chris Anderson, https://www.amazon.com/Free-Future-Radical-Chris-Anderson/dp/1401322905/ https://www.amazon.com/Free-Future-Radical-Chris-Anderson/dp... DHH has written about abundance as part of his approach to Rails, https://world.hey.com/dhh/i-won-t-let-you-pay-me-for-my-open-source-d7cf4568 https://world.hey.com/dhh/i-won-t-let-you-pay-me-for-my-open... The “Post-scarcity economy” article on Wikipedia lists a number of references, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-scarcity_economy Generally, computing trends toward abundance. Computers are priced about the same, but do more each generation.
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  Right but none of these folks were associated with the origins of the net or the web at all. They're people who either inferred post-scarcity through trends they saw or wanted to apply an ideology to the net and the web. DHH is the only technical person in that list. The reason this distinction is important is because a lot of folks try to make the case that the ideological origins of computer networking were with an eye toward post-scarcity, but this seems incorrect to me. Instead it seems to be ideological anger that the internet is not supporting post-scarcity economics.
  - mch82 5y ago
    Tim Berners-Lee, “The Many Meanings of Open”, https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Open.html https://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Open.html > “The World Wide Web turns 25 next year. We have come a long way, but we must all continue to push for these various forms of openness in the appropriate places. Only then can we ensure that the Web is for everyone.” While his essay doesn’t use the words “abundance” or “post-scarcity”, it gets pretty close. My guess is that the guy who gave the Internet away for free probably approaches technology from an abundance perspective. > “…but this seems incorrect to me.” I’m curious what has led you to the opinion these people are wrong? I’m interested to know about histories of the web that reflect a philosophy of scarcity.
    - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
      > While his essay doesn’t use the words “abundance” or “post-scarcity”, it gets pretty close. My guess is that the guy who gave the Internet away for free probably approaches technology from an abundance perspective. Thanks for that essay. I actually didn't see anything that got close to post scarcity. The only point that seemed to touch on it was the point about Open Access but it seemed to be closely scoped to academic work. > My guess is that the guy who gave the Internet away for free probably approaches technology from an abundance perspective. Maybe? Giving things away for free doesn't lead to a post-scarcity mindset. Not every person that donated to charity or volunteers with their time thinks the world can get there either. > I’m curious what has led you to the opinion these people are wrong? I’m interested to know about histories of the web that reflect a philosophy of scarcity. It's hard because a "philosophy of scarcity" is pretty ill-defined. As early as 2016 [1] Berners-Lee was pushing the W3C to standardize web payments. And HTTP status code 402 Payment Required was in the HTTP spec since at least RFC 2068 [2] in 1997. So at least since then someone thought that the internet would be used to facilitate payment. But that's enough uncertainty for me to comfortably say that the internet was not designed for (or even against) post scarcity in mind. Therefore there's no ideological connection between post-scarcity and the net or the web. [1]: https://www.w3.org/blog/wpwg/2016/12/16/web-payments-traction-in-2016-and-looking-ahead/ https://www.w3.org/blog/wpwg/2016/12/16/web-payments-tractio... [2]: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2068 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc2068

FireInsight 5y ago

Web3 has grown synonymous with blockchain. The things I really value in web3 are non-blockchain distributed systems. IPFS, Gun.js, heck, even BitTorrent could be considered web3. Most problems shouldn't be solved with blockchains. Crypto is what makes web3 artificially scarce.

thraxil 5y ago
I don't know about the others, but IPFS uses Filecoin, which is blockchain based.
- dtonon 5y ago
  This is not exact. Filecoin is built on the top of IPFS! https://filecoin.io/build/ https://filecoin.io/build/
  - thraxil 5y ago
    Yes, but IMHO, IPFS without Filecoin doesn't really innovate in any meaningful way over previous CAS/DHT based distributed filesystems (Freenet, Tahoe-LAFS, etc). Filecoin lets IPFS claim that they have at least tried to solve the freeloader problem and incentivized people to actually store strangers' encrypted data long term.