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Largely agree with this. The big promise of defi was to “bank the unbanked”, but Eth is - slow (15 txn/sec, 22-23 with the move to proof of stake) - expensive

Largely agree with this. The big promise of defi was to “bank the unbanked”, but Eth is - slow (15 txn/sec, 22-23 with the move to proof of stake) - expensive (I read somewhere that globally Eth users spend more on 30M USD in fees per day!) - too volatile to be reliable for everyday banking use cases - bad for the environment Blockchain technology is interesting and very powerful, but VCs and founders have all too often put the cart before the horse. A few years ago I spoke to an Aussie tech entrepreneur who had raised funding for his “Airbnb for RV” platform. He didn’t get much attention until he said it was blockchain based. In 9.99 out of 10 cases there is no need for a blockchain when a trusted, centralised ledger will do just fine. Edge cases I can think of where a blockchain makes sense is in cases such as post-trade activities or trade finance where multiple parties need to settle complex transactions in a distributed way (Contour is a good example of this). Disclaimer: I do not own shares in Contour; I just find it interesting.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
>>- slow (15 txn/sec, 22-23 with the move to proof of stake) - expensive (I read somewhere that globally Eth users spend more on 30M USD in fees per day!) - This is no longer the case with L2 solutions, like zk-Rollups. See what StarkEx, which is one particular Validium/zk-Rollup L2 solution, is doing: https://twitter.com/EliBenSasson/status/1475206185762578437?s=20 https://twitter.com/EliBenSasson/status/1475206185762578437?... >>Past week, @ethereum ~ 9M txs. StarkEx ~ 6.25M TWO THIRDS THE TX COUNT OF ETHEREUM. L2 solutions can process transactions at scales and fees a couple orders of magnitude greater and lower than Ethereum L1, respectively. >>too volatile to be reliable for everyday banking use cases Stablecoins aren't volatile, and they are a major, and rapidly growing use case of Ethereum >>bad for the environment Ethereum's energy consumption declines by 99.95% upon the completion of the transition to Proof of Stake.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > Ethereum's energy consumption declines by 99.95% upon the completion of the transition to Proof of Stake. Why do Ethereum fans keep using this example as if it’s already done, when it still isn’t?
  - simonmales 5y ago
    It's an argument at the end of the day. 'We know it's bad now. But it's being worked on.' Just like a Tesla investor might believe autonomous driving is being worked on.
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    We're talking about the long-term viability of something, so it makes sense to talk about how that something will look in the very near future. The completion of Ethereum's transition to Proof of Stake will occur very soon, most likely within the year. The testnet for the merge - which is the term describing the technical process that completes the transition (it refers to the currently running Proof of Stake Beacon Chain being merged into the execution chain to allow Proof of Work to be turned off) - is already running: https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/
- hestefisk 5y ago
  L2 solutions: yes they do indeed scale them, but it appears to be a centralised solution to a decentralised problem. In other words, putting lipstick on a pig. Stablecoins aren’t volatile, correct, but that’s because they are pegged to an offchain fiat currency or other form of “real” collateral. Even DAI, which is the most “truly” decentralised stablecoins of them all, is pegged against fiat. POS is good yes, but the Eth community have been saying this for a long time now. “Show me the money” ;)
  - CryptoPunk 5y ago
    >>L2 solutions: yes they do indeed scale them, but it appears to be a centralised solution to a decentralised problem. In other words, putting lipstick on a pig. L2 block selection can be entirely decentralized. The first iterations are centralized because the software is extremely immature and having the block inclusion process centralized allows bugs to be more quickly and effectively dealt with. The major L2s all have decebtralization of coordinators in their roadmaps. >>Stablecoins aren’t volatile, correct, but that’s because they are pegged to an offchain fiat currency or other form of “real” collateral. Even DAI, which is the most “truly” decentralised stablecoins of them all, is pegged against fiat. Dai is pegged to the dollar, but can use entirely on-chain assets like ETH as collateral. Other stablecoins, like RAI, are not even pegged to any fiat currency, and use only on-chain assets for collateral. >>POS is good yes, but the Eth community have been saying this for a long time now. Progress has been made. On December 1st, 2020, the Proof of Stake Beacon Chain. The Merge, which will complete the transition to the Beacon Chain, now has a testnet, launched on December 20th, 2021: https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/ The transition should be complete within a year. It can't be rushed, given the amount of financial value involved.
arcticbull 5y ago
> Largely agree with this. The big promise of defi was to “bank the unbanked” The un-banked aren't un-banked because there are no banks, or even because banks are inaccessible. They are un-banked because they do not have money. This is a social problem characterized by folks falling through the cracks. It's a lack of social safety net, a lack of unionization, a lack of inflation-adjusted minimum wage, a lack of healthcare. Broadly, a lack of of social programs. I've never met a single person who had money but couldn't get a bank account* - have you? What good is a bank account to someone with no money anyways? What are they going to put into it? Just opening a bank account doesn't make you magically any less poor. You can grab one at ally.com free of charge right now with no minimum deposit. They'll even pay interest on your checking accounts which of course stablecoins will not unless you put them at massive risk. Not to mention for the poor, a massively volatile speculative asset with astronomical fees is literally the worst thing they could put all their money into. * outside people on the OFAC list, which, I would argue, is a good thing.
- krainboltgreene 5y ago
  > I've never met a single person who had money but couldn't get a bank account* - have you? I don't agree with defi but this is absolutely a problem in a lot of rural america. People with money, who get paid, but without a bank so they have to take their checks to gas stations who take huge fees. That you haven't met someone like this isn't surprising at all.
  - jbergens 5y ago
    This sounds like parts of the US has a problem with checks and a lack of good, digital bank services. I can transfer money and pay my bills with my phone. I can even transfer money to people not having the same bank as I have. I did it today, it took 30s or so and the recipient could immediately see the money on her phone. Where I live we also tend to use cards a LOT. I can pay in almost any store with my debit card and the money is drawn from my bank account right away. It was decades since I've saw a check.
    - 5y ago

CryptoPunk 5y ago

>>- slow (15 txn/sec, 22-23 with the move to proof of stake) - expensive (I read somewhere that globally Eth users spend more on 30M USD in fees per day!) - This is no longer the case with L2 solutions, like zk-Rollups. See what StarkEx, which is one particular Validium/zk-Rollup L2 solution, is doing: https://twitter.com/EliBenSasson/status/1475206185762578437?s=20 https://twitter.com/EliBenSasson/status/1475206185762578437?... >>Past week, @ethereum ~ 9M txs. StarkEx ~ 6.25M TWO THIRDS THE TX COUNT OF ETHEREUM. L2 solutions can process transactions at scales and fees a couple orders of magnitude greater and lower than Ethereum L1, respectively. >>too volatile to be reliable for everyday banking use cases Stablecoins aren't volatile, and they are a major, and rapidly growing use case of Ethereum >>bad for the environment Ethereum's energy consumption declines by 99.95% upon the completion of the transition to Proof of Stake.

yunohn 5y ago
> Ethereum's energy consumption declines by 99.95% upon the completion of the transition to Proof of Stake. Why do Ethereum fans keep using this example as if it’s already done, when it still isn’t?
- simonmales 5y ago
  It's an argument at the end of the day. 'We know it's bad now. But it's being worked on.' Just like a Tesla investor might believe autonomous driving is being worked on.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  We're talking about the long-term viability of something, so it makes sense to talk about how that something will look in the very near future. The completion of Ethereum's transition to Proof of Stake will occur very soon, most likely within the year. The testnet for the merge - which is the term describing the technical process that completes the transition (it refers to the currently running Proof of Stake Beacon Chain being merged into the execution chain to allow Proof of Work to be turned off) - is already running: https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/
hestefisk 5y ago
L2 solutions: yes they do indeed scale them, but it appears to be a centralised solution to a decentralised problem. In other words, putting lipstick on a pig. Stablecoins aren’t volatile, correct, but that’s because they are pegged to an offchain fiat currency or other form of “real” collateral. Even DAI, which is the most “truly” decentralised stablecoins of them all, is pegged against fiat. POS is good yes, but the Eth community have been saying this for a long time now. “Show me the money” ;)
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  >>L2 solutions: yes they do indeed scale them, but it appears to be a centralised solution to a decentralised problem. In other words, putting lipstick on a pig. L2 block selection can be entirely decentralized. The first iterations are centralized because the software is extremely immature and having the block inclusion process centralized allows bugs to be more quickly and effectively dealt with. The major L2s all have decebtralization of coordinators in their roadmaps. >>Stablecoins aren’t volatile, correct, but that’s because they are pegged to an offchain fiat currency or other form of “real” collateral. Even DAI, which is the most “truly” decentralised stablecoins of them all, is pegged against fiat. Dai is pegged to the dollar, but can use entirely on-chain assets like ETH as collateral. Other stablecoins, like RAI, are not even pegged to any fiat currency, and use only on-chain assets for collateral. >>POS is good yes, but the Eth community have been saying this for a long time now. Progress has been made. On December 1st, 2020, the Proof of Stake Beacon Chain. The Merge, which will complete the transition to the Beacon Chain, now has a testnet, launched on December 20th, 2021: https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/ https://blog.ethereum.org/2021/12/20/kintsugi-merge-testnet/ The transition should be complete within a year. It can't be rushed, given the amount of financial value involved.

arcticbull 5y ago

> Largely agree with this. The big promise of defi was to “bank the unbanked” The un-banked aren't un-banked because there are no banks, or even because banks are inaccessible. They are un-banked because they do not have money. This is a social problem characterized by folks falling through the cracks. It's a lack of social safety net, a lack of unionization, a lack of inflation-adjusted minimum wage, a lack of healthcare. Broadly, a lack of of social programs. I've never met a single person who had money but couldn't get a bank account* - have you? What good is a bank account to someone with no money anyways? What are they going to put into it? Just opening a bank account doesn't make you magically any less poor. You can grab one at ally.com free of charge right now with no minimum deposit. They'll even pay interest on your checking accounts which of course stablecoins will not unless you put them at massive risk. Not to mention for the poor, a massively volatile speculative asset with astronomical fees is literally the worst thing they could put all their money into. * outside people on the OFAC list, which, I would argue, is a good thing.

krainboltgreene 5y ago
> I've never met a single person who had money but couldn't get a bank account* - have you? I don't agree with defi but this is absolutely a problem in a lot of rural america. People with money, who get paid, but without a bank so they have to take their checks to gas stations who take huge fees. That you haven't met someone like this isn't surprising at all.
- jbergens 5y ago
  This sounds like parts of the US has a problem with checks and a lack of good, digital bank services. I can transfer money and pay my bills with my phone. I can even transfer money to people not having the same bank as I have. I did it today, it took 30s or so and the recipient could immediately see the money on her phone. Where I live we also tend to use cards a LOT. I can pay in almost any store with my debit card and the money is drawn from my bank account right away. It was decades since I've saw a check.
  - 5y ago