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There are some misconceptions, I think, here. 1. People learn more than 1 language. What I'm referring to here is complete beginners who need to learn -how- to

There are some misconceptions, I think, here. 1. People learn more than 1 language. What I'm referring to here is complete beginners who need to learn -how- to program. Once they grok that, it's not difficult to move to other languages, obviously with some exceptions. 2. It's not the job of a -language- to teach everything about programming or networking or computers or various protocols. That's the job of a curriculum. 3. There are way more $major_lang jobs than jobs for D, Clojure, Lisp, Crystal, or any of the other languages that are significantly less used. The sky is the limit for how many languages people want to play around with and learn, once they know enough to start learning other languages by themselves. No recruiter is gonna be like "oh, you learned $major_lang... Even though you likely applied to this role because our stack involves $major_lang and that's a language that you know well..." 4. Help, resources, meetups etc for $major_lang are orders of magnitude more plentiful than for D, etc. Imagine telling a student "no, no, you need to prove yourself by making forum posts for <niche language that I personally like and use> instead of having stackoverflow questions or tutorials to follow" in the case of getting stuck. Of course students should strive to do as much as they can themselves, but you would be surprised to see what beginners get stuck on and just need a gentle push to get going again. 5. Being able to be independent is more engaging than having to constantly pester a teacher or a forum. If a student wants to be a go-getter with e.g. python or lua, there are communities and resources to build games or websites, etc. And those already have had common stumbling block questions answered because they have large communities around them. For the goal of teaching someone how to program, any language other than the major ones like python, javascript, ruby, c++ strictly make it more difficult for students because of the smaller ecosystem, lesser amount of documentation, and smaller community in general. I have nothing against D or other niche languages, but I'm against picking languages just because I'm familiar with them. It can be difficult for experienced programmers & power users to remember that there's a sheer amount of information that needs to be learned in. There is no reason to make that more difficult for students.

WalterBright 5y ago
I don't buy learning D is more difficult. Everything needed is available, for free. Once a certain threshold is met, more doesn't add much of anything. It's easier to transition from D to C++, or D to Python, than to transition from C++ to Python or vice versa. You're right, it's not the job of a language to teach everything. But since D supports multi-paradigm, it's easier to use D to teach it.
- xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
  I mean this with all due respect, but you are far too biased. It's fair for you to state that D makes solid efforts to be approachable and easy to learn, but you cannot claim it is easy to learn: you don't have the data, and you invented the language. > Everything needed is available, for free. This is a moot point. I struggle to think of another language for which this is not true. > But since D supports multi-paradigm, it's easier to use D to teach it. You've confused learning to program and learning a paradigm with learning a language. They are not the same thing. For one, multi-paradigm languages hinder comprehension for newcomers as there are too many ways to do things. It's too easy and convenient to be impure with respect to a paradigm. Multi-paradigm languages are mostly useful after you understand the individual paradigms well, but you will surely disagree with me here. We're all entitled to be wrong from time to time :) I respect you and your work but you're missing the forest for the trees here. When I've taught people to program, the simplest environments are the most effective. Basic, C, Lua, Processing, Lisp, etc. By comparison, C++ and Python are full of difficult-to-grasp footguns, I'd strongly avoid them (or comparisons to them) in this day and age.
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    > you are far too biased Keep in mind that I created D because I wanted to program in it. It is based on my decades of experience with other languages and supporting those languages and knowing where people go wrong with them and where the problems are. > C C is a simple language, but grasping how it works is not simple. To get C you need to understand assembler, which is not simple at all. The misunderstandings novices have about pointers, for example, are misunderstandings about how computers work. C is loaded with legacy problems, too, like uninitialized variables containing garbage. There's all that confusion between prototypes and non-prototypes. Implicit coercion of 2 to a pointer: int *p = 2; The C preprocessor is nowhere near as simple as it appears. Arrays are determined to decay to uncontrolled pointers. Buffer overflows are pervasive, even among the most professional programs. D (as Better C) is a very C-like language, but minus those problems. It's reasonable to say it is much more easily learned. It has far fewer footguns. > You've confused I may have been unclear, but I am not confused. I've written two C compilers from scratch, and 3 C preprocessors. I know every last dirty detail of C. Basic, however, we can agree is a simple language. But it teaches bad habits, which have to be unlearned.
GoblinSlayer 5y ago
You say it as if stackoverflow is a silver bullet. I searched for "why my program doesn't work" and this is what I got: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32335245/ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32335245/ A novice stands no chance to figure out anything with this. Same result for javascript: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8290710/ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8290710/ And python: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50510291/ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50510291/ (this one got downvoted, awesome experience for a novice, some people argue abusive nature of stackoverflow is intended so that people learn hard all its ins and outs before touching it or get abused)

WalterBright 5y ago

I don't buy learning D is more difficult. Everything needed is available, for free. Once a certain threshold is met, more doesn't add much of anything. It's easier to transition from D to C++, or D to Python, than to transition from C++ to Python or vice versa. You're right, it's not the job of a language to teach everything. But since D supports multi-paradigm, it's easier to use D to teach it.

xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
I mean this with all due respect, but you are far too biased. It's fair for you to state that D makes solid efforts to be approachable and easy to learn, but you cannot claim it is easy to learn: you don't have the data, and you invented the language. > Everything needed is available, for free. This is a moot point. I struggle to think of another language for which this is not true. > But since D supports multi-paradigm, it's easier to use D to teach it. You've confused learning to program and learning a paradigm with learning a language. They are not the same thing. For one, multi-paradigm languages hinder comprehension for newcomers as there are too many ways to do things. It's too easy and convenient to be impure with respect to a paradigm. Multi-paradigm languages are mostly useful after you understand the individual paradigms well, but you will surely disagree with me here. We're all entitled to be wrong from time to time :) I respect you and your work but you're missing the forest for the trees here. When I've taught people to program, the simplest environments are the most effective. Basic, C, Lua, Processing, Lisp, etc. By comparison, C++ and Python are full of difficult-to-grasp footguns, I'd strongly avoid them (or comparisons to them) in this day and age.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  > you are far too biased Keep in mind that I created D because I wanted to program in it. It is based on my decades of experience with other languages and supporting those languages and knowing where people go wrong with them and where the problems are. > C C is a simple language, but grasping how it works is not simple. To get C you need to understand assembler, which is not simple at all. The misunderstandings novices have about pointers, for example, are misunderstandings about how computers work. C is loaded with legacy problems, too, like uninitialized variables containing garbage. There's all that confusion between prototypes and non-prototypes. Implicit coercion of 2 to a pointer: int *p = 2; The C preprocessor is nowhere near as simple as it appears. Arrays are determined to decay to uncontrolled pointers. Buffer overflows are pervasive, even among the most professional programs. D (as Better C) is a very C-like language, but minus those problems. It's reasonable to say it is much more easily learned. It has far fewer footguns. > You've confused I may have been unclear, but I am not confused. I've written two C compilers from scratch, and 3 C preprocessors. I know every last dirty detail of C. Basic, however, we can agree is a simple language. But it teaches bad habits, which have to be unlearned.

GoblinSlayer 5y ago

You say it as if stackoverflow is a silver bullet. I searched for "why my program doesn't work" and this is what I got: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32335245/ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/32335245/ A novice stands no chance to figure out anything with this. Same result for javascript: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8290710/ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/8290710/ And python: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50510291/ https://stackoverflow.com/questions/50510291/ (this one got downvoted, awesome experience for a novice, some people argue abusive nature of stackoverflow is intended so that people learn hard all its ins and outs before touching it or get abused)