7 ms·

You Can't Win

94 points by enigmatic02 5y ago

qwertyuiop_ 5y ago
Their huge advantage is the extreme low cost to build the polished mvp. They are based in India. A US or European bootstrap cannot compete on cost.
- pedalpete 5y ago
  If your comment were true, there wouldn't be any successful US or European startups. Clearly, that isn't the case. Even getting an MVP built in western countries isn't that expensive IF you know what you're doing. Unfortunately, I've seen many people spend outrageous sums and little or nothing for it. Teach yourself how to code, know what you're getting into, get aligned with the right people. But I think my biggest gripe with your comment is that it makes an excuse for not getting it done.
  - tshanmu 5y ago
    this x100 - "IF you know what you're doing." when everything works and its areasonable success, it looks so easy - but getting all the different people talking to each other and building a product that a customer would pay to use is quite a challenge regardless of your product cost base (which anyways for the proper proudct market fit is a very small fraction compared to the revenues)
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  It is an advantage, but merely AN advantage. No different from the various advantages anyone has anywhere. Just as their huge disadvantage, selectively overlooked in order to weave this tale of woe, was merely A disadvantage, no different from the various disadvantages anyone has anywhere. This "cannot compete" pity party is pathetic. "They work harder than me and figured out something I didn't. It's so unfair!" Even just the "on cost" part is invalid. Cost is just one variable of many, and may be offset or leveraged by many others. But even aside from that, just considering cost itself, income is just as context sensitive as cost. If you live somewhere where the developer has to be paid more, the customer is good for more in the same place.
- zaptheimpaler 5y ago
johnvaluk 5y ago
If I could switch back to Freshservice circa 2018, I would do it in a heartbeat. Every change they've introduced since then is perplexing.
star-trek-fleet 5y ago
The core thesis of any startup remains the core principle of capitalism: use the capital to serve the customer needs better than competitors. One of the mechanism under this principle is to build product for the ones who really need them. Nowadays most of the glamar is given to so called disruptive startups. Which for all things considered, are net negative to the world. For example, crypto...
- nefitty 5y ago
  Crypto is an industry. Yeah, it's 99% scams and ponzis. If you wiped away that entire industry, would your argument still hold weight?
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    I totally agree crypto 99% is scams and ponzi. > If you wiped away that entire industry, would your argument still hold weight? There are plenty of industry are created by startups. Like internet search. Social network. etc.
  - Hasu 5y ago
    If you wiped away the 99% scams and ponzis, what's left? Bitcoin at $50 and a bunch of coins at fractions of a cent no one cares about?
    - easrng 5y ago
      What's left is Monero, for buying drugs and donating to hacktivists.
jsonne 5y ago
"Freshworks focuses on being found ‘organically’ (i.e. via free or low-cost channels) rather than with expensive paid marketing and outbound sales efforts." Proceeds to rent a blimp. To be clear I have nothing against guerilla marketing tactics but the "oh our customers just love us so much everything is organic and easy" really does a disservice to people reading these articles trying to figure out how to grow their companies. Many companies use paid ads, many companies that utilize SEO pay for links or for agencies to get links, sales isn't a dirty word. It reminds me of the silly serendipity founder legends people tell folks when the mess and figuring it out process would be a lot more educational.
- whoisburbansky 5y ago
  Why would it be either/or? Strong organic growth goes hand in hand with efficient marketing spending, and it sounds like their guerilla marketing efforts dovetailed nicely with how they grow normally. Nothing in the article gave me the impression they were bragging about only needing organic word of mouth growth.
- ShamelessC 5y ago
  Without the right local sales talent, outsourcing the job would have been fairly expensive - cash they wanted to hold on to due to the competitive market they were in. I agree that the speech reads fairly "LinkedIn", however.
- ameliaquining 5y ago
  Wait, how much does it cost to rent a blimp for a one-off event? Surely not very much, compared to the marketing budget of a typical company this size? Building brand awareness with a stunt like this (which mostly relies on viral publicity) could easily be dramatically cheaper than building it by paying for ads on an ongoing basis.
- hermannj314 5y ago
  According to their S-1, they spent $133 million on Sales and Marketing in 2020. To generate $308 million in revenue. That doesn't feel organic, but maybe it is organic at the margin or something. Source: I'm not sure if this is the right link, the S1 in the article linked to the author's linkedin account. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001544522/000162828021017717/freshworkss-1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001544522/000162828...
pm90 5y ago
Having worked on b2b software for a while, targeting users rather than buyers really resonated with me. A lot of b2b software is quite simply garbage. None of the amazing UX patterns that we have come to accept as baseline for b2c are present in b2b software (for the most part). User feedback is rarely solicited; if it is, it’s not prioritized by product teams. And the reason is very simple: users don’t matter. Unlike b2c users who can just leave, b2b users are being paid to use the software as a tool to get something done. They often have very little say over what product needs to be purchased. Even if there might be outliers, the industry as a whole doesn’t prioritize users so the market is also pretty small. The decision makers are executives who are weighing a list of (supposed) features, integrations etc. and price. It’s good to see freshworks use a different approach and succeed with it, I wish them the best. P.S: I’ve used Zendesk a lot and it ranks among the worst tools I’ve used (a few rungs above JIRA). I hope I get to use Freshworks equivalent at some point.
- tshanmu 5y ago
  not sure if people realise it - Freshdesk grew out a comment around how bad Zendesk is on HN right here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358398
- bberenberg 5y ago
  The teams at Zendesk and Atlassian also think they’re building for users. I doubt Freshworks is any different other than this being their marketing.
  - stymaar 5y ago
    Atlasian, really?
    - pm90 5y ago
      Having worked at shitty organizations, it is possible that front line workers care deeply about the product users but they’re not being heard by those who prioritize what should get done. Not saying that’s necessarily what’s happening at Atlassian; just want to point out the complexity of the situation. What I found nice about FreshWorks is the leadership is aligned (or at least says they are) with that goal.
giantg2 5y ago
I can't win. I was born to lose.
dang 5y ago
Past related threads: A comment in Hacker News led Girish Mathrubootham to create Freshworks (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28336815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28336815 - Aug 2021 (30 comments) Freshworks (previously Freshdesk) files for IPO - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28335299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28335299 - Aug 2021 (1 comment) How Hacker News motivated me to resign my job and launch my own startup (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4427728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4427728 - Aug 2012 (24 comments) How a simple comment on Hacker News made me quit my job and launch a startup - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732 - March 2011 (92 comments)
hactually 5y ago
That's a very flattering review of their suite and product. If salesforce is the bar, maybe it's a hit but I found the product broken with problems with roles across the different offerings, SSO issues and just broken parts of the platform.

94 points by enigmatic02 5y ago

Their huge advantage is the extreme low cost to build the polished mvp. They are based in India. A US or European bootstrap cannot compete on cost.

pedalpete 5y ago
If your comment were true, there wouldn't be any successful US or European startups. Clearly, that isn't the case. Even getting an MVP built in western countries isn't that expensive IF you know what you're doing. Unfortunately, I've seen many people spend outrageous sums and little or nothing for it. Teach yourself how to code, know what you're getting into, get aligned with the right people. But I think my biggest gripe with your comment is that it makes an excuse for not getting it done.
- tshanmu 5y ago
  this x100 - "IF you know what you're doing." when everything works and its areasonable success, it looks so easy - but getting all the different people talking to each other and building a product that a customer would pay to use is quite a challenge regardless of your product cost base (which anyways for the proper proudct market fit is a very small fraction compared to the revenues)
Brian_K_White 5y ago
It is an advantage, but merely AN advantage. No different from the various advantages anyone has anywhere. Just as their huge disadvantage, selectively overlooked in order to weave this tale of woe, was merely A disadvantage, no different from the various disadvantages anyone has anywhere. This "cannot compete" pity party is pathetic. "They work harder than me and figured out something I didn't. It's so unfair!" Even just the "on cost" part is invalid. Cost is just one variable of many, and may be offset or leveraged by many others. But even aside from that, just considering cost itself, income is just as context sensitive as cost. If you live somewhere where the developer has to be paid more, the customer is good for more in the same place.
zaptheimpaler 5y ago

johnvaluk 5y ago

If I could switch back to Freshservice circa 2018, I would do it in a heartbeat. Every change they've introduced since then is perplexing.

star-trek-fleet 5y ago

The core thesis of any startup remains the core principle of capitalism: use the capital to serve the customer needs better than competitors. One of the mechanism under this principle is to build product for the ones who really need them. Nowadays most of the glamar is given to so called disruptive startups. Which for all things considered, are net negative to the world. For example, crypto...

nefitty 5y ago
Crypto is an industry. Yeah, it's 99% scams and ponzis. If you wiped away that entire industry, would your argument still hold weight?
- justicezyx 5y ago
  I totally agree crypto 99% is scams and ponzi. > If you wiped away that entire industry, would your argument still hold weight? There are plenty of industry are created by startups. Like internet search. Social network. etc.
- Hasu 5y ago
  If you wiped away the 99% scams and ponzis, what's left? Bitcoin at $50 and a bunch of coins at fractions of a cent no one cares about?
  - easrng 5y ago
    What's left is Monero, for buying drugs and donating to hacktivists.

jsonne 5y ago

"Freshworks focuses on being found ‘organically’ (i.e. via free or low-cost channels) rather than with expensive paid marketing and outbound sales efforts." Proceeds to rent a blimp. To be clear I have nothing against guerilla marketing tactics but the "oh our customers just love us so much everything is organic and easy" really does a disservice to people reading these articles trying to figure out how to grow their companies. Many companies use paid ads, many companies that utilize SEO pay for links or for agencies to get links, sales isn't a dirty word. It reminds me of the silly serendipity founder legends people tell folks when the mess and figuring it out process would be a lot more educational.

whoisburbansky 5y ago
Why would it be either/or? Strong organic growth goes hand in hand with efficient marketing spending, and it sounds like their guerilla marketing efforts dovetailed nicely with how they grow normally. Nothing in the article gave me the impression they were bragging about only needing organic word of mouth growth.
ShamelessC 5y ago
Without the right local sales talent, outsourcing the job would have been fairly expensive - cash they wanted to hold on to due to the competitive market they were in. I agree that the speech reads fairly "LinkedIn", however.
ameliaquining 5y ago
Wait, how much does it cost to rent a blimp for a one-off event? Surely not very much, compared to the marketing budget of a typical company this size? Building brand awareness with a stunt like this (which mostly relies on viral publicity) could easily be dramatically cheaper than building it by paying for ads on an ongoing basis.
hermannj314 5y ago
According to their S-1, they spent $133 million on Sales and Marketing in 2020. To generate $308 million in revenue. That doesn't feel organic, but maybe it is organic at the margin or something. Source: I'm not sure if this is the right link, the S1 in the article linked to the author's linkedin account. https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001544522/000162828021017717/freshworkss-1.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001544522/000162828...

pm90 5y ago

Having worked on b2b software for a while, targeting users rather than buyers really resonated with me. A lot of b2b software is quite simply garbage. None of the amazing UX patterns that we have come to accept as baseline for b2c are present in b2b software (for the most part). User feedback is rarely solicited; if it is, it’s not prioritized by product teams. And the reason is very simple: users don’t matter. Unlike b2c users who can just leave, b2b users are being paid to use the software as a tool to get something done. They often have very little say over what product needs to be purchased. Even if there might be outliers, the industry as a whole doesn’t prioritize users so the market is also pretty small. The decision makers are executives who are weighing a list of (supposed) features, integrations etc. and price. It’s good to see freshworks use a different approach and succeed with it, I wish them the best. P.S: I’ve used Zendesk a lot and it ranks among the worst tools I’ve used (a few rungs above JIRA). I hope I get to use Freshworks equivalent at some point.

tshanmu 5y ago
not sure if people realise it - Freshdesk grew out a comment around how bad Zendesk is on HN right here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358398 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1358398
bberenberg 5y ago
The teams at Zendesk and Atlassian also think they’re building for users. I doubt Freshworks is any different other than this being their marketing.
- stymaar 5y ago
  Atlasian, really?
  - pm90 5y ago
    Having worked at shitty organizations, it is possible that front line workers care deeply about the product users but they’re not being heard by those who prioritize what should get done. Not saying that’s necessarily what’s happening at Atlassian; just want to point out the complexity of the situation. What I found nice about FreshWorks is the leadership is aligned (or at least says they are) with that goal.

giantg2 5y ago

I can't win. I was born to lose.

dang 5y ago

Past related threads: A comment in Hacker News led Girish Mathrubootham to create Freshworks (2019) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28336815 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28336815 - Aug 2021 (30 comments) Freshworks (previously Freshdesk) files for IPO - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28335299 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28335299 - Aug 2021 (1 comment) How Hacker News motivated me to resign my job and launch my own startup (2011) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4427728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4427728 - Aug 2012 (24 comments) How a simple comment on Hacker News made me quit my job and launch a startup - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2340732 - March 2011 (92 comments)

hactually 5y ago

That's a very flattering review of their suite and product. If salesforce is the bar, maybe it's a hit but I found the product broken with problems with roles across the different offerings, SSO issues and just broken parts of the platform.