6 ms·

Germany is acting kind of funny. Coal: bad (granted!). Gas: bad (even worse when from russia) (kind of granted). Nuclear: very very bad! (?). Solar: good, nimby

Germany is acting kind of funny. Coal: bad (granted!). Gas: bad (even worse when from russia) (kind of granted). Nuclear: very very bad! (?). Solar: good, nimby. Wind: good, nimby. Electric cars: cool, must have. Additional energy requirements for electric cars? Wait, what? (https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/wirtschaft/wirtschaft-wachstumsprognose-altmaier-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/wirtschaft/wirtschaft-wachstu...) This is getting out of hand. I'm really interested in the upcoming years, and very glad I'm not personally affected if energy prices raise by a few hundred percent, and sad that I have to be glad about that.

88840-8855 5y ago
I think this is partially due to non-stable political leadership. The gas crisis could be eased by opening the valves for Russian gas - this was the plan of Merkel's CDU party. The new government has a strong green touch. For some reason, the Greens ended up in the foreign affairs ministry (instead of in the transportation ministry, which would have been an excellent fit but is just not as "fancy"). Now we have green foreign politics which lead to further tensions with Russia, no North Stream 2 gas, hence, the gas crisis will likely continue. Instead, "dirtier" LNG gas is imported from the US, but the Green Party made its point.
- julienfr112 5y ago
  Non stable political leadership ? Wait, Germany, right ? Do you know Angela ?
- belorn 5y ago
  The German plan was to invest and heavily subsidize the construction of renewables, wind and solar, since that was declared the cheapest way to generate power. Are you saying the actually plan by the CDU was all along to build a dependency on Russian gas, and only use renewables when the weather allowed it? That seems like a terrible plan and quite expensive. Why was that the plan?
  - cinntaile 5y ago
    Gas is a temporary measure until renewables can stand on its own. Maybe some plants will stick around forever because peakers are nice to have, but the dependency should reduce over time.
    - melling 5y ago
      We’ve been waiting decades for renewables Coal for electricity globally is at record highs. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/20/coal-fired-power-generation-set-to-hit-all-time-high-in-2021-iea.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/20/coal-fired-power-generat... it really appears that we aren’t going about this in an effective manner
      - cinntaile 5y ago
        That's not so surprising, total energy usage keeps increasing. Renewable energy only supplies a small part of that, but it's rapidly increasing.
    - belorn 5y ago
      Waiting for a technology to be viable is risky and potentially very costly, and using Russia as your temporary measure without any alternatives seems like a irresponsible decision that should require public support. Did Germans actually want this, or was renewable presented to the public as something that already could stand on its own?
      - cinntaile 5y ago
        They're aware. Merkel didn't want to close the nuclear power plants but was forced to shift policy after Fukushima due to public pressure. Germany's policies basically made solar and wind a viable option for everyone from a cost perspective, it wasn't when they started and took the leap. All in all, they knew.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Few major Western parties are as ossified as the CDU. The fact that they have been pushed out of goverment after spending 16 years under a single leader there(!) does not mean that German politics suffers from instability.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    Not just that. Before Merkel, sure there was a brief period of an SPD chancellor (Gerhard Schröder), who after that went to work for Gazprom! Before that Germany had 16 years of Helmut Kohl, who was Angela Merkel's "political father". Helmut Kohl (1982–1998) Gerhard Schröder (1998–2005) Angela Merkel (2005–2021)
mrfusion 5y ago
Once you understand that environmentalism is more about punishing people for their lifestyle than helping the environment it will start making more sense.
- voxl 5y ago
  And here I thought it was about the undeniable climate change that is an existential threat to human existence.
  - lovecg 5y ago
    I thought in this context it’s pretty much irrelevant what Western countries do now - the ball is in China’s court. We can all stop driving and flying tomorrow and it won’t make a difference.
  - qwytw 5y ago
    I would guess there is not an insignificant overlap between modern environmentalists and the people who have been campaigning against nuclear power since the 1970s and 80s.
    - badpun 5y ago
      Nuclear power is another existential threat. We’ve had plenty of time to switch from fossil fueld since the 70ties with methods which didn’t require nuclear. All that time (half a century!) was mostly wasted however and now even many environmentalist are pro-nuclear as they see that climate disruption is a more immediate threat than nuclear.
      - qwytw 5y ago
        Did we? IIRC solar was prohibitively expensive until last decade not sure about other renewables but I'd assume they were significantly less efficient back then. I think it's a bit too late to be pro-nuclear (barring any technological breakthroughs) but had investment into nuclear continued after the Three Mile Island accident at the same rate it did before I'm sure we'd had at least a decade or two head start in decreasing CO2 emissions compared to the current situation.
rad_gruchalski 5y ago
Ha, and Germany sells Russian gas to Poland and Ukraine.
- przeor 5y ago
  bonkers
nmehner 5y ago
It's almost as if Germany is not a hive mind, but has different actors with different interests ;) Coal: Bad, yes. This is being phased out: https://www.bmu.de/en/topics/climate-adaptation/climate-protection/national-climate-policy/translate-to-english-fragen-und-antworten-zum-kohleausstieg-in-deutschland https://www.bmu.de/en/topics/climate-adaptation/climate-prot... Gas: Mostly used for heating in Germany. Should be replaced with heatpumps/better insulation. Bad for heating, but since gas power plants are cheap, new gas plants will be used to generate electricity during the "Dunkelflaute" (no wind, no sun) until better solutions are available. So good for emergencies since plants are cheap and gas can be stored. Solar: Good, many people have it in their back yards and I'm not aware of any protests. Wind: Good, but most wind is in the north and Bavaria is blocking SuedLink, since the North will profit from it: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/kampf-gegen-stromtrassen-warum-bayern-die-energiepolitik-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/kampf-gegen-stromtrassen-waru... So currently adding additional wind power in the north does not make a lot of sense, if the energy cannot be used. This is why a lot off offshore wind power is being delayed. The new government is planning for 680-750TWh (80% renewable) of electricity in 2030 compared to 560TWh in 2020 (https://dynamic.faz.net/download/2021/Koalitionsvertrag2021-2025.pdf https://dynamic.faz.net/download/2021/Koalitionsvertrag2021-... ). So they are planning for electric cars as well. Electric cars are also interesting, because you can charge the cars based on prices / grid load thus making the grid more stable. There are projects like NordLink (https://www.tennet.eu/our-grid/international-connections/nordlink/ https://www.tennet.eu/our-grid/international-connections/nor... ) that use pumped storage in Norway for storing energy (capacity: 87TWh https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-energiforsyning/kraftproduksjon/ https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-energiforsyning/kraftpr... ). Also the high electricity prices in winter are aften caused by France, since a lot of electric heating is used there (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-01/france-faced-with-power-market-crunch-next-week-as-demand-jumps https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-01/france-fa... ). Interesting times indeed, but I guess the new government will be more forward looking than the previous one. A few hundred percent differences in spot prices is ok, since only a small amount of electricity is traded there. And these differences will make battery storage viable.
- Proven 5y ago

88840-8855 5y ago

I think this is partially due to non-stable political leadership. The gas crisis could be eased by opening the valves for Russian gas - this was the plan of Merkel's CDU party. The new government has a strong green touch. For some reason, the Greens ended up in the foreign affairs ministry (instead of in the transportation ministry, which would have been an excellent fit but is just not as "fancy"). Now we have green foreign politics which lead to further tensions with Russia, no North Stream 2 gas, hence, the gas crisis will likely continue. Instead, "dirtier" LNG gas is imported from the US, but the Green Party made its point.

julienfr112 5y ago
Non stable political leadership ? Wait, Germany, right ? Do you know Angela ?
belorn 5y ago
The German plan was to invest and heavily subsidize the construction of renewables, wind and solar, since that was declared the cheapest way to generate power. Are you saying the actually plan by the CDU was all along to build a dependency on Russian gas, and only use renewables when the weather allowed it? That seems like a terrible plan and quite expensive. Why was that the plan?
- cinntaile 5y ago
  Gas is a temporary measure until renewables can stand on its own. Maybe some plants will stick around forever because peakers are nice to have, but the dependency should reduce over time.
  - melling 5y ago
    We’ve been waiting decades for renewables Coal for electricity globally is at record highs. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/20/coal-fired-power-generation-set-to-hit-all-time-high-in-2021-iea.html https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/12/20/coal-fired-power-generat... it really appears that we aren’t going about this in an effective manner
    - cinntaile 5y ago
      That's not so surprising, total energy usage keeps increasing. Renewable energy only supplies a small part of that, but it's rapidly increasing.
  - belorn 5y ago
    Waiting for a technology to be viable is risky and potentially very costly, and using Russia as your temporary measure without any alternatives seems like a irresponsible decision that should require public support. Did Germans actually want this, or was renewable presented to the public as something that already could stand on its own?
    - cinntaile 5y ago
      They're aware. Merkel didn't want to close the nuclear power plants but was forced to shift policy after Fukushima due to public pressure. Germany's policies basically made solar and wind a viable option for everyone from a cost perspective, it wasn't when they started and took the leap. All in all, they knew.
inglor_cz 5y ago
Few major Western parties are as ossified as the CDU. The fact that they have been pushed out of goverment after spending 16 years under a single leader there(!) does not mean that German politics suffers from instability.
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  Not just that. Before Merkel, sure there was a brief period of an SPD chancellor (Gerhard Schröder), who after that went to work for Gazprom! Before that Germany had 16 years of Helmut Kohl, who was Angela Merkel's "political father". Helmut Kohl (1982–1998) Gerhard Schröder (1998–2005) Angela Merkel (2005–2021)

mrfusion 5y ago

Once you understand that environmentalism is more about punishing people for their lifestyle than helping the environment it will start making more sense.

voxl 5y ago
And here I thought it was about the undeniable climate change that is an existential threat to human existence.
- lovecg 5y ago
  I thought in this context it’s pretty much irrelevant what Western countries do now - the ball is in China’s court. We can all stop driving and flying tomorrow and it won’t make a difference.
- qwytw 5y ago
  I would guess there is not an insignificant overlap between modern environmentalists and the people who have been campaigning against nuclear power since the 1970s and 80s.
  - badpun 5y ago
    Nuclear power is another existential threat. We’ve had plenty of time to switch from fossil fueld since the 70ties with methods which didn’t require nuclear. All that time (half a century!) was mostly wasted however and now even many environmentalist are pro-nuclear as they see that climate disruption is a more immediate threat than nuclear.
    - qwytw 5y ago
      Did we? IIRC solar was prohibitively expensive until last decade not sure about other renewables but I'd assume they were significantly less efficient back then. I think it's a bit too late to be pro-nuclear (barring any technological breakthroughs) but had investment into nuclear continued after the Three Mile Island accident at the same rate it did before I'm sure we'd had at least a decade or two head start in decreasing CO2 emissions compared to the current situation.

rad_gruchalski 5y ago

Ha, and Germany sells Russian gas to Poland and Ukraine.

przeor 5y ago
bonkers

nmehner 5y ago

It's almost as if Germany is not a hive mind, but has different actors with different interests ;) Coal: Bad, yes. This is being phased out: https://www.bmu.de/en/topics/climate-adaptation/climate-protection/national-climate-policy/translate-to-english-fragen-und-antworten-zum-kohleausstieg-in-deutschland https://www.bmu.de/en/topics/climate-adaptation/climate-prot... Gas: Mostly used for heating in Germany. Should be replaced with heatpumps/better insulation. Bad for heating, but since gas power plants are cheap, new gas plants will be used to generate electricity during the "Dunkelflaute" (no wind, no sun) until better solutions are available. So good for emergencies since plants are cheap and gas can be stored. Solar: Good, many people have it in their back yards and I'm not aware of any protests. Wind: Good, but most wind is in the north and Bavaria is blocking SuedLink, since the North will profit from it: https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/kampf-gegen-stromtrassen-warum-bayern-die-energiepolitik-100.html https://www.deutschlandfunk.de/kampf-gegen-stromtrassen-waru... So currently adding additional wind power in the north does not make a lot of sense, if the energy cannot be used. This is why a lot off offshore wind power is being delayed. The new government is planning for 680-750TWh (80% renewable) of electricity in 2030 compared to 560TWh in 2020 (https://dynamic.faz.net/download/2021/Koalitionsvertrag2021-2025.pdf https://dynamic.faz.net/download/2021/Koalitionsvertrag2021-... ). So they are planning for electric cars as well. Electric cars are also interesting, because you can charge the cars based on prices / grid load thus making the grid more stable. There are projects like NordLink (https://www.tennet.eu/our-grid/international-connections/nordlink/ https://www.tennet.eu/our-grid/international-connections/nor... ) that use pumped storage in Norway for storing energy (capacity: 87TWh https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-energiforsyning/kraftproduksjon/ https://energifaktanorge.no/en/norsk-energiforsyning/kraftpr... ). Also the high electricity prices in winter are aften caused by France, since a lot of electric heating is used there (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-01/france-faced-with-power-market-crunch-next-week-as-demand-jumps https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-12-01/france-fa... ). Interesting times indeed, but I guess the new government will be more forward looking than the previous one. A few hundred percent differences in spot prices is ok, since only a small amount of electricity is traded there. And these differences will make battery storage viable.

Proven 5y ago