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It really depends on the threat you are planing against. If for some reason I'm target of US government - I'm screwed anyway. If my concern is trusting the lapt

It really depends on the threat you are planing against. If for some reason I'm target of US government - I'm screwed anyway. If my concern is trusting the laptop after I left it in train station and got it back from some random dude - it's good enough.

microtonal 5y ago
Additionally, many of these security measures are put in place to prevent that rootkits/malware can compromise the firmware, boot loader, or operating system.
lovelyviking 5y ago
>It really depends on the threat you are planing against. What about oppressive let's say Russian government while you travel let's say in Ukraine and then occupation occurs. Not a fantastic scenario by the way ... It really doesn't depend on the threat at all. It's about the model of the society you wish to have and what values you promote. It's about who you wish to be responsible : the 'big company' caring about your safety and taking your freedom on the way or you caring yourself about own safety and preserving freedom on the way. I do not really think there is a choice here because the first option will always be abused at some point. Freedom does matter and it comes with responsibility. THIS is the main issue here. THIS is what separates society with responsible citizens from the society with 'irresponsible people' who wish to trade their freedom for 'safety' resulting in loosing both (and democracy itself after some time).
- hraedon 5y ago
  All sentiments like this one and those similar to it elide the facts that 1) we’ve tried relying on “user responsibility” before, and excusing the comically bad outcomes through victim blaming doesn’t change them; and 2) we didn’t get together and vote Apple the only manufacturer of computers. If you don’t like their model, choose someone else. Why should average users who would otherwise be served perfectly well by Apple’s solution be required to be “responsible” for some subset of personal security you think denotes a “responsible” citizen from an “irresponsible” one?
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    >If you don’t like their model, choose someone else. Many follow their example and without push back there will be no someone else because average users my not understand consequences unless they are educated by people who do understand them. Like with many other areas requiring certain level of expertise to understand consequences of certain desicions. > we’ve tried relying on “user responsibility” before, >Why should average users who would otherwise be served perfectly well by Apple’s solution be required to be “responsible” Do you believe in choice? If you do then average users should have a choice whether to rely on Apple or switch such functionality off. Without having such choice people become less and less responsible. You can say they choose by buying such machines but I do not think this could be qualified as a choice just like accepting EULA. It's not really a choice.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    User responsibility and device safety are not mutually exclusive. You can keep the iPhone exactly as-is and add a developer mode that would pretty much shut up every nerd this side of the Mississippi.
    - marcan_42 5y ago
      Which is exactly what they did with M1 (add a developer mode that doesn't put their normal users at risk by allowing for persistent supply chain compromise attacks), but it doesn't seem to be enough to make some people happy...
      - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
        To be fair to the other side of the argument, I think people are mostly upset about the iPhone. There's an implicit fear (which I don't agree with!) that if Apple is so insistent on keeping the iPhone locked down, that must be their ultimate goal for their other platforms as well. I think if Apple was to add a developer mode to the iPhone, 99% of people would actually shut up.
        5y ago
lovelyviking 5y ago
How about much simpler scenario, no threat at all. Just dumb bug in software that puts your computer in DFU mode that says, please connect it to another Mac. Nice isn't it? And then you should run and find 'another mac'. What if there are no other macs around? What if you travel and have no connection to the internet or it's limited ? This is not a hypothetical situation, this is exactly what have happened in my case. And then you are stuck in the field without any way to recover your machine. Nice isn't it? "When Apple's servers go down you lose the ability to do low-level recovery on these machines anyway, since DFU flashing requires phoning home to get a ticket for your machine as well as low-level configuration data" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29704923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29704923
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- argsnd 5y ago
  Just use https://github.com/libimobiledevice/idevicerestore https://github.com/libimobiledevice/idevicerestore on a Linux or Windows machine. Yes, if you don't have internet access you have a problem, but I'm personally happy enough with the benefits of this security model that I'm willing to accept the tradeoff.
  - lovelyviking 5y ago
    >I'm happy willing to accept the tradeoff. For now ... Thank you for the link but may I suggest you to think about the future and where it leads.
    - marcan_42 5y ago
      The Mac has existed for 37 years and the iPhone for 15 of those and the Mac is still open to running whatever OS users choose. You really need to find an argument other than an unqualified "the future is doom and gloom" when after all this time that future hasn't come and the platform remains open.

microtonal 5y ago

Additionally, many of these security measures are put in place to prevent that rootkits/malware can compromise the firmware, boot loader, or operating system.

lovelyviking 5y ago

>It really depends on the threat you are planing against. What about oppressive let's say Russian government while you travel let's say in Ukraine and then occupation occurs. Not a fantastic scenario by the way ... It really doesn't depend on the threat at all. It's about the model of the society you wish to have and what values you promote. It's about who you wish to be responsible : the 'big company' caring about your safety and taking your freedom on the way or you caring yourself about own safety and preserving freedom on the way. I do not really think there is a choice here because the first option will always be abused at some point. Freedom does matter and it comes with responsibility. THIS is the main issue here. THIS is what separates society with responsible citizens from the society with 'irresponsible people' who wish to trade their freedom for 'safety' resulting in loosing both (and democracy itself after some time).

hraedon 5y ago
All sentiments like this one and those similar to it elide the facts that 1) we’ve tried relying on “user responsibility” before, and excusing the comically bad outcomes through victim blaming doesn’t change them; and 2) we didn’t get together and vote Apple the only manufacturer of computers. If you don’t like their model, choose someone else. Why should average users who would otherwise be served perfectly well by Apple’s solution be required to be “responsible” for some subset of personal security you think denotes a “responsible” citizen from an “irresponsible” one?
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  >If you don’t like their model, choose someone else. Many follow their example and without push back there will be no someone else because average users my not understand consequences unless they are educated by people who do understand them. Like with many other areas requiring certain level of expertise to understand consequences of certain desicions. > we’ve tried relying on “user responsibility” before, >Why should average users who would otherwise be served perfectly well by Apple’s solution be required to be “responsible” Do you believe in choice? If you do then average users should have a choice whether to rely on Apple or switch such functionality off. Without having such choice people become less and less responsible. You can say they choose by buying such machines but I do not think this could be qualified as a choice just like accepting EULA. It's not really a choice.
- smoldesu 5y ago
  User responsibility and device safety are not mutually exclusive. You can keep the iPhone exactly as-is and add a developer mode that would pretty much shut up every nerd this side of the Mississippi.
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    Which is exactly what they did with M1 (add a developer mode that doesn't put their normal users at risk by allowing for persistent supply chain compromise attacks), but it doesn't seem to be enough to make some people happy...
    - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
      To be fair to the other side of the argument, I think people are mostly upset about the iPhone. There's an implicit fear (which I don't agree with!) that if Apple is so insistent on keeping the iPhone locked down, that must be their ultimate goal for their other platforms as well. I think if Apple was to add a developer mode to the iPhone, 99% of people would actually shut up.
      - 5y ago

lovelyviking 5y ago

How about much simpler scenario, no threat at all. Just dumb bug in software that puts your computer in DFU mode that says, please connect it to another Mac. Nice isn't it? And then you should run and find 'another mac'. What if there are no other macs around? What if you travel and have no connection to the internet or it's limited ? This is not a hypothetical situation, this is exactly what have happened in my case. And then you are stuck in the field without any way to recover your machine. Nice isn't it? "When Apple's servers go down you lose the ability to do low-level recovery on these machines anyway, since DFU flashing requires phoning home to get a ticket for your machine as well as low-level configuration data" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29704923 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29704923

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
argsnd 5y ago
Just use https://github.com/libimobiledevice/idevicerestore https://github.com/libimobiledevice/idevicerestore on a Linux or Windows machine. Yes, if you don't have internet access you have a problem, but I'm personally happy enough with the benefits of this security model that I'm willing to accept the tradeoff.
- lovelyviking 5y ago
  >I'm happy willing to accept the tradeoff. For now ... Thank you for the link but may I suggest you to think about the future and where it leads.
  - marcan_42 5y ago
    The Mac has existed for 37 years and the iPhone for 15 of those and the Mac is still open to running whatever OS users choose. You really need to find an argument other than an unqualified "the future is doom and gloom" when after all this time that future hasn't come and the platform remains open.