4 ms·

> which is something we know is highly effective (purely from a physics point of view) This in itself is a tricky claim to make with confidence. I agree we kno

by umvi 5y ago

> which is something we know is highly effective (purely from a physics point of view) This in itself is a tricky claim to make with confidence. I agree we know certain types of masks (N95) are highly effective at preventing spread of airborne illness if worn properly. But... in the context of the article you referenced, are you prepared to defend the claim that cloth masks which haven't been washed for months and are frequently touched, adjusted, and worn incorrectly by kids and teens are "highly effective at preventing spread of airborne illness"?

LorenPechtel 5y ago
Just because inferior masks poorly handled aren't worth much doesn't mean masks aren't worth much.
- merpnderp 5y ago
  But it does indeed mean the mask mandates weren't worth much.
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    It means mask mandates that allow cotton masks as opposed to surgical masks or N95s aren't worth as much.
    - Wolfenstein98k 5y ago
      Which is what they were. So we all agree they weren't worth much.
      - HWR_14 5y ago
        They're still worth a lot. For one, mask mandates are going to encourage some people to wear non-cotton masks who would otherwise skip masks. For another, cotton masks are still better than nothing. But I agree, we should statrt having stricter mandates.
    - merpnderp 5y ago
      I'm still waiting for the CDC to explain why last year when they were explaining how N95 masks required expert knowledge to use and that us dummies in the public would just poke covid in our eyes if we tried to wear them, how exactly that changed. Are we no longer dummies and capable of using masks without poking covid in our eyes or were they lying? And if they were lying, how many people died from using inferior masks since then based on the lie that cotton masks are somehow useful.
      - amrangaye 5y ago
        Do you have anything to support this “dummies” claim? What I remember from the N95 “guidance” (it wasn’t a “ban” iirc) was that the reason was to ensure there was enough supply of them for healthcare / frontline workers, who need them more than the rest of us, which made sense at the time (and I can see reasons why it would change later). I’m curious when that reason switched to “you are all dummies who can’t be allowed to use masks”?
        londgine 5y ago
        https://web.archive.org/web/20200301071220/https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/#53e066da676c https://web.archive.org/web/20200301071220/https://www.forbe...
      - godelski 5y ago
        They wanted to save N95s for professionals due to a shortage. They lied. It's the same way the fed lies about inflation because people thinking inflation happening worsens the effects making it irresponsible to tell the truth. How many people died? Hard to say. You have to also compare how many were saved because medical workers had access to N95 masks. But you're not considering this factor. Honest truth is that it's complicated and people were trying their best. It's not a conspiracy it's just that we're humans.
        wnoise 5y ago
        > They wanted to save N95s for professionals due to a shortage. They lied. That's certainly a plausible interpretation of what happened. Another is they actually thought masks don't help in most cases and that covid wasn't primarily air-transmitted.
unethical_ban 5y ago
You adjusted the parent's assertion by saying "worn incorrectly by kids and teens" where they only said "masks are effective". Sure the original article was talking school mandates, but that wasn't the parent's point. I don't understand how anyone can assert that masks are not useful in preventing the spread of airborne saliva and mucus particles. Have you never in your life had someone talking toward you and had some spit land on you? Have you ever been to a salad bar and seen a sneeze guard? Do you cover your mouth when you cough? Particles spread a lot when forcefully exhaling, and not just when coughing or sneezing.
- umvi 5y ago
  Yeah but my point was the claim that "wearing masks is highly effective" needs more qualifiers. There are many kinds of masks and many different communicable diseases. A cloth mask will not block covid aerosol transmission at all, and covid is known to transmit via aerosol. A cloth mask may prevent some spread via droplets, but it's unclear if it's "highly effective" or just "marginally effective" or even "ineffective" given how often people touch and adjust cloth masks and how rarely people wash them.
  - godelski 5y ago
    Cloth masks definitely prevent said spit that lands on you but not fine aerosols. My point was how effective, not if
  - stickfigure 5y ago
    The science on cloth masks is pretty settled - they are ineffective at preventing covid transmission. Huge study by pro-masking people at Stanford and Yale, N=350,000: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-mask... Cloth masks had no statistically significant effect on the transmission of covid. There is good news though - a 20% increase in masking with surgical masks resulted in a 10% decrease in transmission. You should consider cloth masks to be purely psychological protection.
    - 5y ago
nmz 5y ago
Nice logical fallacy you got there. move that goalpost.

by umvi 5y ago

LorenPechtel 5y ago

Just because inferior masks poorly handled aren't worth much doesn't mean masks aren't worth much.

merpnderp 5y ago
But it does indeed mean the mask mandates weren't worth much.
- HWR_14 5y ago
  It means mask mandates that allow cotton masks as opposed to surgical masks or N95s aren't worth as much.
  - Wolfenstein98k 5y ago
    Which is what they were. So we all agree they weren't worth much.
    - HWR_14 5y ago
      They're still worth a lot. For one, mask mandates are going to encourage some people to wear non-cotton masks who would otherwise skip masks. For another, cotton masks are still better than nothing. But I agree, we should statrt having stricter mandates.
  - merpnderp 5y ago
    I'm still waiting for the CDC to explain why last year when they were explaining how N95 masks required expert knowledge to use and that us dummies in the public would just poke covid in our eyes if we tried to wear them, how exactly that changed. Are we no longer dummies and capable of using masks without poking covid in our eyes or were they lying? And if they were lying, how many people died from using inferior masks since then based on the lie that cotton masks are somehow useful.
    - amrangaye 5y ago
      Do you have anything to support this “dummies” claim? What I remember from the N95 “guidance” (it wasn’t a “ban” iirc) was that the reason was to ensure there was enough supply of them for healthcare / frontline workers, who need them more than the rest of us, which made sense at the time (and I can see reasons why it would change later). I’m curious when that reason switched to “you are all dummies who can’t be allowed to use masks”?
      - londgine 5y ago
        https://web.archive.org/web/20200301071220/https://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/#53e066da676c https://web.archive.org/web/20200301071220/https://www.forbe...
    - godelski 5y ago
      They wanted to save N95s for professionals due to a shortage. They lied. It's the same way the fed lies about inflation because people thinking inflation happening worsens the effects making it irresponsible to tell the truth. How many people died? Hard to say. You have to also compare how many were saved because medical workers had access to N95 masks. But you're not considering this factor. Honest truth is that it's complicated and people were trying their best. It's not a conspiracy it's just that we're humans.
      - wnoise 5y ago
        > They wanted to save N95s for professionals due to a shortage. They lied. That's certainly a plausible interpretation of what happened. Another is they actually thought masks don't help in most cases and that covid wasn't primarily air-transmitted.

unethical_ban 5y ago

You adjusted the parent's assertion by saying "worn incorrectly by kids and teens" where they only said "masks are effective". Sure the original article was talking school mandates, but that wasn't the parent's point. I don't understand how anyone can assert that masks are not useful in preventing the spread of airborne saliva and mucus particles. Have you never in your life had someone talking toward you and had some spit land on you? Have you ever been to a salad bar and seen a sneeze guard? Do you cover your mouth when you cough? Particles spread a lot when forcefully exhaling, and not just when coughing or sneezing.

umvi 5y ago
Yeah but my point was the claim that "wearing masks is highly effective" needs more qualifiers. There are many kinds of masks and many different communicable diseases. A cloth mask will not block covid aerosol transmission at all, and covid is known to transmit via aerosol. A cloth mask may prevent some spread via droplets, but it's unclear if it's "highly effective" or just "marginally effective" or even "ineffective" given how often people touch and adjust cloth masks and how rarely people wash them.
- godelski 5y ago
  Cloth masks definitely prevent said spit that lands on you but not fine aerosols. My point was how effective, not if
- stickfigure 5y ago
  The science on cloth masks is pretty settled - they are ineffective at preventing covid transmission. Huge study by pro-masking people at Stanford and Yale, N=350,000: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-masks-covid-19.html https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/09/surgical-mask... Cloth masks had no statistically significant effect on the transmission of covid. There is good news though - a 20% increase in masking with surgical masks resulted in a 10% decrease in transmission. You should consider cloth masks to be purely psychological protection.
  - 5y ago

nmz 5y ago

Nice logical fallacy you got there. move that goalpost.