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> You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. From your perspective, given you seem convinced

> You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. At the end of the day, if you want to think that then that's fine. I think it's silly, like claiming that weightlifting and stretching are the same - and I doubt there are many studies comparing the two. > Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept It's many concepts under one umbrella. Meditation is just maintaining focus on one thing, to the exclusion of all else. It can be your breath, your internal emotional state, or even nothing (as per zazen meditation). As the old saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, so unless you have an actual logical argument or evidence for them being the same thing, then there's little point debating it.

Jensson 5y ago
> From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. Occam's razor. If people benefit from sitting and thinking about just one thing then the simplest explanation is that the benefit is that they aren't stressing around about their normal life. If there is some special effect above that then it would need strong evidence comparing it to just sitting down and not stressing about things.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  You're trying to frame your position as the default, but it isn't. I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". Sleep does more than just allow you to escape stress. The latter is more like comparing meditation to escapist entertainment. The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. If you try to spend 10 minutes focussing on your breath, you train yourself to notice when your attention slips away. This is useful in regular life, but it also allows you to see what your attention is slipping towards - whether that's a stressor, or an unprocessed emotion, or some nonsense that you keep thinking about but can let go of once you recognise it. There's a strong benefit to living more actively in the present, as opposed to being trapped in your worries and imagination.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. > You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". I wasn't the one who said meditation is a nap. Stop arguing that point. I do however doubt that there is anything special about meditation. And the process of taking a nap has a lot of similar parts to taking a break or meditating, I'd want evidence that those aren't just the same source. (although a nap also would add the sleeping part) Edit: > The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. But there is no evidence this actually helps. It helps some people take a break from their worries as you say, I understand that part can help them, but to all the people who can destress without some religious practice like this then I don't see why they would benefit from it. Just sit, don't think about things that worry you and relax. Why wouldn't that get the benefits of meditation? You say meditation also helps in other ways, but I see no evidence that those effects exists. Religions and their practices tend to get a large following who wants the things to be true, I see no reason to believe in those though.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      OK so this is an anti-religion thing? Because mindfulness and meditation, while linked with religion, does not require the religious aspect to function. I mean hell, Buddhism doesn't have a God, nor (depending on the sect) any supernatural elements. You can be skeptical all you want, but rejecting practices purely because they started out with religious explanations is just as irrational as accepting them because of those same reasons. Many medicines are based on natural substances that were initially based on traditional and herbal remedies and I'm sure they were originally given religious explanations - religion was basically the stopgap explanation for anything we didn't understand back in ancient history. And for what it's worth, I'm a radical materialist.
- elbear 5y ago
  Most meditation techniques involve stabilising attention. That is, you can keep your attention on the same stimulus for longer and get deep focus. Another benefit is increased awareness. You become more aware of your thought patterns and the emotions they trigger. This way you can become less reactive. You have space to not follow the initial impulse that comes up.

Jensson 5y ago

> From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. Occam's razor. If people benefit from sitting and thinking about just one thing then the simplest explanation is that the benefit is that they aren't stressing around about their normal life. If there is some special effect above that then it would need strong evidence comparing it to just sitting down and not stressing about things.

beaconstudios 5y ago
You're trying to frame your position as the default, but it isn't. I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". Sleep does more than just allow you to escape stress. The latter is more like comparing meditation to escapist entertainment. The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. If you try to spend 10 minutes focussing on your breath, you train yourself to notice when your attention slips away. This is useful in regular life, but it also allows you to see what your attention is slipping towards - whether that's a stressor, or an unprocessed emotion, or some nonsense that you keep thinking about but can let go of once you recognise it. There's a strong benefit to living more actively in the present, as opposed to being trapped in your worries and imagination.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. > You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". I wasn't the one who said meditation is a nap. Stop arguing that point. I do however doubt that there is anything special about meditation. And the process of taking a nap has a lot of similar parts to taking a break or meditating, I'd want evidence that those aren't just the same source. (although a nap also would add the sleeping part) Edit: > The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. But there is no evidence this actually helps. It helps some people take a break from their worries as you say, I understand that part can help them, but to all the people who can destress without some religious practice like this then I don't see why they would benefit from it. Just sit, don't think about things that worry you and relax. Why wouldn't that get the benefits of meditation? You say meditation also helps in other ways, but I see no evidence that those effects exists. Religions and their practices tend to get a large following who wants the things to be true, I see no reason to believe in those though.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    OK so this is an anti-religion thing? Because mindfulness and meditation, while linked with religion, does not require the religious aspect to function. I mean hell, Buddhism doesn't have a God, nor (depending on the sect) any supernatural elements. You can be skeptical all you want, but rejecting practices purely because they started out with religious explanations is just as irrational as accepting them because of those same reasons. Many medicines are based on natural substances that were initially based on traditional and herbal remedies and I'm sure they were originally given religious explanations - religion was basically the stopgap explanation for anything we didn't understand back in ancient history. And for what it's worth, I'm a radical materialist.
elbear 5y ago
Most meditation techniques involve stabilising attention. That is, you can keep your attention on the same stimulus for longer and get deep focus. Another benefit is increased awareness. You become more aware of your thought patterns and the emotions they trigger. This way you can become less reactive. You have space to not follow the initial impulse that comes up.