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4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as cau

4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? If you want to believe meditation is the same as napping, you're free to do so. As somebody with a great deal of experience in both meditation and napping, my experience is that they're completely different - meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult.

Jensson 5y ago
> 4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. Accounting for placebo is the minimum you should do, that doesn't mean that the rest of the study is well done. > You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. > meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult. Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept, it is whatever you want it to be. In some practices it is strenuous as you say, in others it is just relaxing. Bundling all of that under a common name makes research around this topic even less trustworthy.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  > You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. At the end of the day, if you want to think that then that's fine. I think it's silly, like claiming that weightlifting and stretching are the same - and I doubt there are many studies comparing the two. > Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept It's many concepts under one umbrella. Meditation is just maintaining focus on one thing, to the exclusion of all else. It can be your breath, your internal emotional state, or even nothing (as per zazen meditation). As the old saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, so unless you have an actual logical argument or evidence for them being the same thing, then there's little point debating it.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. Occam's razor. If people benefit from sitting and thinking about just one thing then the simplest explanation is that the benefit is that they aren't stressing around about their normal life. If there is some special effect above that then it would need strong evidence comparing it to just sitting down and not stressing about things.
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      You're trying to frame your position as the default, but it isn't. I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". Sleep does more than just allow you to escape stress. The latter is more like comparing meditation to escapist entertainment. The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. If you try to spend 10 minutes focussing on your breath, you train yourself to notice when your attention slips away. This is useful in regular life, but it also allows you to see what your attention is slipping towards - whether that's a stressor, or an unprocessed emotion, or some nonsense that you keep thinking about but can let go of once you recognise it. There's a strong benefit to living more actively in the present, as opposed to being trapped in your worries and imagination.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        > I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. > You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". I wasn't the one who said meditation is a nap. Stop arguing that point. I do however doubt that there is anything special about meditation. And the process of taking a nap has a lot of similar parts to taking a break or meditating, I'd want evidence that those aren't just the same source. (although a nap also would add the sleeping part) Edit: > The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. But there is no evidence this actually helps. It helps some people take a break from their worries as you say, I understand that part can help them, but to all the people who can destress without some religious practice like this then I don't see why they would benefit from it. Just sit, don't think about things that worry you and relax. Why wouldn't that get the benefits of meditation? You say meditation also helps in other ways, but I see no evidence that those effects exists. Religions and their practices tend to get a large following who wants the things to be true, I see no reason to believe in those though.

Jensson 5y ago

> 4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. Accounting for placebo is the minimum you should do, that doesn't mean that the rest of the study is well done. > You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. > meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult. Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept, it is whatever you want it to be. In some practices it is strenuous as you say, in others it is just relaxing. Bundling all of that under a common name makes research around this topic even less trustworthy.

beaconstudios 5y ago
> You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. At the end of the day, if you want to think that then that's fine. I think it's silly, like claiming that weightlifting and stretching are the same - and I doubt there are many studies comparing the two. > Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept It's many concepts under one umbrella. Meditation is just maintaining focus on one thing, to the exclusion of all else. It can be your breath, your internal emotional state, or even nothing (as per zazen meditation). As the old saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, so unless you have an actual logical argument or evidence for them being the same thing, then there's little point debating it.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. Occam's razor. If people benefit from sitting and thinking about just one thing then the simplest explanation is that the benefit is that they aren't stressing around about their normal life. If there is some special effect above that then it would need strong evidence comparing it to just sitting down and not stressing about things.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    You're trying to frame your position as the default, but it isn't. I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". Sleep does more than just allow you to escape stress. The latter is more like comparing meditation to escapist entertainment. The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. If you try to spend 10 minutes focussing on your breath, you train yourself to notice when your attention slips away. This is useful in regular life, but it also allows you to see what your attention is slipping towards - whether that's a stressor, or an unprocessed emotion, or some nonsense that you keep thinking about but can let go of once you recognise it. There's a strong benefit to living more actively in the present, as opposed to being trapped in your worries and imagination.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > I've never heard anybody describe meditation as "basically a nap" before. > You're also jumping around in your position - first it's "meditation is sleep" now it's "meditation is time you're not stressing". I wasn't the one who said meditation is a nap. Stop arguing that point. I do however doubt that there is anything special about meditation. And the process of taking a nap has a lot of similar parts to taking a break or meditating, I'd want evidence that those aren't just the same source. (although a nap also would add the sleeping part) Edit: > The simple explanation for mindfulness' effect is it allows you to better observe and understand your own mental processes. But there is no evidence this actually helps. It helps some people take a break from their worries as you say, I understand that part can help them, but to all the people who can destress without some religious practice like this then I don't see why they would benefit from it. Just sit, don't think about things that worry you and relax. Why wouldn't that get the benefits of meditation? You say meditation also helps in other ways, but I see no evidence that those effects exists. Religions and their practices tend to get a large following who wants the things to be true, I see no reason to believe in those though.