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They're not the same things, in the same way that healthy eating and exercise aren't - they're both systemically beneficial. Sleep and meditation are different

They're not the same things, in the same way that healthy eating and exercise aren't - they're both systemically beneficial. Sleep and meditation are different and serve different purposes, and stretching is closer to exercise than anything else. They do get packaged into a lifestyle, but they also predate consumerism by thousands of years.

Jensson 5y ago
> They're not the same things Evidence for this? Taking a break and relaxing your mind is beneficial, not sure why one form wouldn't substitute for another form.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation
  - Jensson 5y ago
    From the wiki article: > Of more than 3,000 scientific studies that were found in a comprehensive search of 17 relevant databases, only about 4% had randomised controlled trials (RCTs), which are designed to exclude the placebo effect. So 4% accounted for placebo. How many accounted for the "taking a break is healthy" effect? You need to show that it is different than just taking a break! Any evidence of this?
    - beaconstudios 5y ago
      4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? If you want to believe meditation is the same as napping, you're free to do so. As somebody with a great deal of experience in both meditation and napping, my experience is that they're completely different - meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult.
      - Jensson 5y ago
        > 4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. Accounting for placebo is the minimum you should do, that doesn't mean that the rest of the study is well done. > You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. > meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult. Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept, it is whatever you want it to be. In some practices it is strenuous as you say, in others it is just relaxing. Bundling all of that under a common name makes research around this topic even less trustworthy.
        beaconstudios 5y ago
        > You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. At the end of the day, if you want to think that then that's fine. I think it's silly, like claiming that weightlifting and stretching are the same - and I doubt there are many studies comparing the two. > Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept It's many concepts under one umbrella. Meditation is just maintaining focus on one thing, to the exclusion of all else. It can be your breath, your internal emotional state, or even nothing (as per zazen meditation). As the old saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, so unless you have an actual logical argument or evidence for them being the same thing, then there's little point debating it.
        Jensson 5y ago
        > From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. Occam's razor. If people benefit from sitting and thinking about just one thing then the simplest explanation is that the benefit is that they aren't stressing around about their normal life. If there is some special effect above that then it would need strong evidence comparing it to just sitting down and not stressing about things.

Jensson 5y ago

> They're not the same things Evidence for this? Taking a break and relaxing your mind is beneficial, not sure why one form wouldn't substitute for another form.

beaconstudios 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_meditation
- Jensson 5y ago
  From the wiki article: > Of more than 3,000 scientific studies that were found in a comprehensive search of 17 relevant databases, only about 4% had randomised controlled trials (RCTs), which are designed to exclude the placebo effect. So 4% accounted for placebo. How many accounted for the "taking a break is healthy" effect? You need to show that it is different than just taking a break! Any evidence of this?
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? If you want to believe meditation is the same as napping, you're free to do so. As somebody with a great deal of experience in both meditation and napping, my experience is that they're completely different - meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > 4% of 3000 is 120 - that's a lot of studies. Accounting for placebo is the minimum you should do, that doesn't mean that the rest of the study is well done. > You're the one claiming they're the same - where's your evidence that napping causes the effects identified as caused by meditation? You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. > meditation is not just quietly relaxing, in fact it can be extremely difficult. Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept, it is whatever you want it to be. In some practices it is strenuous as you say, in others it is just relaxing. Bundling all of that under a common name makes research around this topic even less trustworthy.
      - beaconstudios 5y ago
        > You are the one coming with the extraordinary claim, that meditation does something fundamentally different. From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. At the end of the day, if you want to think that then that's fine. I think it's silly, like claiming that weightlifting and stretching are the same - and I doubt there are many studies comparing the two. > Right, meditation isn't even a defined concept It's many concepts under one umbrella. Meditation is just maintaining focus on one thing, to the exclusion of all else. It can be your breath, your internal emotional state, or even nothing (as per zazen meditation). As the old saying goes, you can't reason somebody out of a position they didn't reason themselves into, so unless you have an actual logical argument or evidence for them being the same thing, then there's little point debating it.
        Jensson 5y ago
        > From your perspective, given you seem convinced that meditation is the same as a nap, sure. That itself seems to me like an absurd proposition. Occam's razor. If people benefit from sitting and thinking about just one thing then the simplest explanation is that the benefit is that they aren't stressing around about their normal life. If there is some special effect above that then it would need strong evidence comparing it to just sitting down and not stressing about things.