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> Renewables and electrification are the primary solution to the climate change problem Not until grid-scale energy storage is widely available and affordable.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
One might reasonably consider "grid-scale energy storage" to be an implicit part of "renewables and electrification".
- gwright 5y ago
  I don't think that is reasonable as an interpretation because grid-scale energy storage doesn't yet exist. An assertion that "renewables and electrification" solves our energy problems is just circular reasoning. It requires a non-existent technology (grid-scale long-term energy storage) and so doesn't fall into the category of "solution" and more into the category of "speculation".
  - iso1631 5y ago
    > grid-scale energy storage doesn't yet exist The New Zealand south island electric grid is almost entirely grid-scale energy storage, in the form of hydro. Easy to recharge (pump water uphill, although NZ doesn't need that), easy to tap (open gates).
  - cinntaile 5y ago
    What do you mean when you say grid-scale energy storage doesn't exist? Is this different from utility-scale which has existed for many years?
  - pydry 5y ago
    What exactly are these 2.2GW of battery installations in California then? https://www.energystoragejournal.com/southern-california-edison-agrees-three-grid-scale-battery-installations/ https://www.energystoragejournal.com/southern-california-edi... Or the 1GW they already have?
    - stymaar 5y ago
      The power (in W) isn't the relevant value when talking about batteries, it's the stored energy (in Wh) that matters (it's the opposite for dam storage, where energy is plentiful but power is limited). Just do the math and check how many minutes the installation would stay up under significant load from the grid. BTW I'm baffled to see a website called “energy storage journal” mixing up energy and power like this …
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    We certainly do have grid-scale technology. Whether it can be, or is, or will be deployed is another question.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
Yup, that's in the book I linked. A lot less storage is needed than most people think. We only need about 3 hours worth of storage. That's a lot, but it's feasible. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z
- ftth_finland 5y ago
  Oh, please. Up north, like here in Finland, you’d be hard pressed to get by with 3 months of storage.
- gwright 5y ago
  > We only need about 3 hours worth of storage This doesn't align with the analysis that I've seen. For example in this post (https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/the-disastrous-economics-of-trying-to-power https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/the-disastrous-economics...) the analysis shows that California would have to spend about $5 trillion on battery storage to have a solar+wind+battery grid. If the book you reference was accurate we would be seeing headlines about power companies bragging about these new grid arrangements but instead I just see headlines about how India an China are moving ahead with enormous amounts of coal power plants, rapidly increasing energy costs where intermittent power generation is a significant fraction of power capacity (i.e. Germany), and power outages when base load generating capacity isn't sufficient to keep the lights on when the sun sets and the wind dies.
  - missedthecue 5y ago
    Is there even enough lithium on earth for global grid storage, nevermind electric vehicles?
    - fukpaywalls2 5y ago
      stationary batteries do not need to be from lithium. please search for iron or rust batteries.
    - RobertoG 5y ago
hannob 5y ago
This is really thinking it backwards. You don't build the storage before you have the renewables to store. And almost no country is at a point where they need storage in large amounts (as long as that's an option it's cheaper to add flexibility by exchanging with neighboring countries). E.g. hydrogen electrolyseurs + gas plants that can use H2 exist and aren't particularly challenging. The reason you don't see that yet is that we don't have the huge amounts of renewables that would need this infrastructure yet.
7952 5y ago
The UK pipeline for battery storage is over 20GW.
- gwright 5y ago
  I don't think the units are correct here. My observation has been that even reputable news sources seem to go all wonky with energy units. I believe the appropriate units for consideration would be GWh = gigawatt-hours. This article, https://www.environmentalleader.com/2021/01/worlds-largest-utility-scale-battery-energy-storage-system-now-online/ https://www.environmentalleader.com/2021/01/worlds-largest-u..., suggests that the largest battery storage system is 1,200 MWh or 1.2GWh of storage (at a cost of $400 million) For comparison, all generation capacity in California is 272,576 gigawatt-hours https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2020-total-system-electric-generation https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo...
  - iso1631 5y ago
    A grid battery has two numbers that are of interest One is how many Joules it can deliver in a second (Giga/Mega/Kilo/watts) One is how many Joules it can delivery completely (Giga/Mega/Kilo/watts) it can deliver If I'm running my 10kW shower for 5 minutes, I can do that from a battery that only has 1kWh of storage, but I can't run it from a battery that can only deliver 1kW. This is all high-school level science, and it's an indictment on the lack of diversity in news reporting how badly they get it wrong

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

One might reasonably consider "grid-scale energy storage" to be an implicit part of "renewables and electrification".

gwright 5y ago
I don't think that is reasonable as an interpretation because grid-scale energy storage doesn't yet exist. An assertion that "renewables and electrification" solves our energy problems is just circular reasoning. It requires a non-existent technology (grid-scale long-term energy storage) and so doesn't fall into the category of "solution" and more into the category of "speculation".
- iso1631 5y ago
  > grid-scale energy storage doesn't yet exist The New Zealand south island electric grid is almost entirely grid-scale energy storage, in the form of hydro. Easy to recharge (pump water uphill, although NZ doesn't need that), easy to tap (open gates).
- cinntaile 5y ago
  What do you mean when you say grid-scale energy storage doesn't exist? Is this different from utility-scale which has existed for many years?
- pydry 5y ago
  What exactly are these 2.2GW of battery installations in California then? https://www.energystoragejournal.com/southern-california-edison-agrees-three-grid-scale-battery-installations/ https://www.energystoragejournal.com/southern-california-edi... Or the 1GW they already have?
  - stymaar 5y ago
    The power (in W) isn't the relevant value when talking about batteries, it's the stored energy (in Wh) that matters (it's the opposite for dam storage, where energy is plentiful but power is limited). Just do the math and check how many minutes the installation would stay up under significant load from the grid. BTW I'm baffled to see a website called “energy storage journal” mixing up energy and power like this …
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  We certainly do have grid-scale technology. Whether it can be, or is, or will be deployed is another question.

bryanlarsen 5y ago

Yup, that's in the book I linked. A lot less storage is needed than most people think. We only need about 3 hours worth of storage. That's a lot, but it's feasible. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-021-26355-z

ftth_finland 5y ago
Oh, please. Up north, like here in Finland, you’d be hard pressed to get by with 3 months of storage.
gwright 5y ago
> We only need about 3 hours worth of storage This doesn't align with the analysis that I've seen. For example in this post (https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/the-disastrous-economics-of-trying-to-power https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/the-disastrous-economics...) the analysis shows that California would have to spend about $5 trillion on battery storage to have a solar+wind+battery grid. If the book you reference was accurate we would be seeing headlines about power companies bragging about these new grid arrangements but instead I just see headlines about how India an China are moving ahead with enormous amounts of coal power plants, rapidly increasing energy costs where intermittent power generation is a significant fraction of power capacity (i.e. Germany), and power outages when base load generating capacity isn't sufficient to keep the lights on when the sun sets and the wind dies.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  Is there even enough lithium on earth for global grid storage, nevermind electric vehicles?
  - fukpaywalls2 5y ago
    stationary batteries do not need to be from lithium. please search for iron or rust batteries.
  - RobertoG 5y ago

hannob 5y ago

This is really thinking it backwards. You don't build the storage before you have the renewables to store. And almost no country is at a point where they need storage in large amounts (as long as that's an option it's cheaper to add flexibility by exchanging with neighboring countries). E.g. hydrogen electrolyseurs + gas plants that can use H2 exist and aren't particularly challenging. The reason you don't see that yet is that we don't have the huge amounts of renewables that would need this infrastructure yet.

7952 5y ago

The UK pipeline for battery storage is over 20GW.

gwright 5y ago
I don't think the units are correct here. My observation has been that even reputable news sources seem to go all wonky with energy units. I believe the appropriate units for consideration would be GWh = gigawatt-hours. This article, https://www.environmentalleader.com/2021/01/worlds-largest-utility-scale-battery-energy-storage-system-now-online/ https://www.environmentalleader.com/2021/01/worlds-largest-u..., suggests that the largest battery storage system is 1,200 MWh or 1.2GWh of storage (at a cost of $400 million) For comparison, all generation capacity in California is 272,576 gigawatt-hours https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/california-electricity-data/2020-total-system-electric-generation https://www.energy.ca.gov/data-reports/energy-almanac/califo...
- iso1631 5y ago
  A grid battery has two numbers that are of interest One is how many Joules it can deliver in a second (Giga/Mega/Kilo/watts) One is how many Joules it can delivery completely (Giga/Mega/Kilo/watts) it can deliver If I'm running my 10kW shower for 5 minutes, I can do that from a battery that only has 1kWh of storage, but I can't run it from a battery that can only deliver 1kW. This is all high-school level science, and it's an indictment on the lack of diversity in news reporting how badly they get it wrong