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This is yet another violation of the Sino-British Joint Declaration, the treaty between China and the U.K. defining how Hong Kong will be handed over to China[1

This is yet another violation of the Sino-British Joint Declaration, the treaty between China and the U.K. defining how Hong Kong will be handed over to China[1]: > Hong Kong would maintain its existing governing and economic systems separate from that of mainland China under the principle of "one country, two systems". The West needs to realize: China does not uphold its own treaties. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-British_Joint_Declaration

throwaway4good 5y ago
Exactly how is this a breach of the agreement? Formally this is done by the HK government/police. Is a breach of the general principle of two systems, or is there a more specific clause that is breached?
bigbillheck 5y ago
> The West needs to realize: China does not uphold its own treaties Does any major power?
- EGreg 5y ago
  Ask the Native Americans Or these guys: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/world/asia/white-house-faults-gop-senators-letter-to-irans-leaders.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/world/asia/white-house-fa... Or this: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/06/793895401/iraqi-parliament-votes-to-expel-u-s-troops-trump-threatens-sanctions https://www.npr.org/2020/01/06/793895401/iraqi-parliament-vo... Yet just because someone acts badly, doesn’t mean we the People should lower standards for the whole world.
throwawayHK 5y ago
The big loophole is the provision for China's intervention in matters of "National Security". This is exactly what has been used to craft very vague language that basically allows authorities to treat anything that goes counter to China's official line as a "threat to National Security". It's so vague that self-censorship is now omnipresent in what was, just a few years ago, a bastion of freedom of speech in Asia. Newspaper and political figures are afraid of being targetted for their perceived dissent, and there is no real recourse, with pressure on judges to fall in line. It is a farce of course, but there will be no international action. The British have no recourse to enforce the treaty. China will invade HK with tanks before they release their tightening grip on it, and the world will watch and do nothing of course. It's not just democracy that is under threat in HK. There never was any to start with. It's plain freedom of speech that is under threat.
- baybal2 5y ago
  UK has all means to successfully use force, and secure its gains - that's the military reality on the ground. It has an amphibious force to land a division, more with requisitioned civilian vessels, and it has thermonuclear weapons to threaten chokepoints — more than enough to get the peninsula. UK is not a small military. With mobilised territorials, and first line conscripts, it will be as much as 10-12 divisions ready on short order.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Moodles 5y ago
  - mrpopo 5y ago
    This would be the worst course of action. The Chinese population is propagandized enough and won't hesitate to go to war head-on against the West.
    - Moodles 5y ago
      It is an interesting question on how to deprogram the pro-communist party populous. All the brainwashed types I’ve ever spoken to believe the most insane things despite otherwise being intelligent people. E.g. Covid was made by the US to frame China. They also seem to conflate criticism of the CCP with Chinese people in general. I suspect many of the people behind the troll pro-China accounts commenting here are doing this (or they’re just paid). (Guys, CCP is anti-Chinese people. If you love China, don’t support this oppressive regime because one day they’ll come for you and your family.) How do we overdone this?
      - karmasimida 5y ago
        Try convince people vaccine is good/bad for them, you got a ticket for a ride already. Accept it is a fact that people who you thought is unreasonable thought precisely the same about you.
champagnois 5y ago
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Sure: they made a deal. But now they are breaking some of the terms of that deal. And that's not nice to the people in Hong Kong.
  - champagnois 5y ago
    Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewar with China. The Chinese economy was somewhat of a marvel of the 1700s-1800s, studied by US presidents and founding fathers like Ben Franklin even. (2) The UK couldn't produce anything the Chinese wanted to buy (a goal to help the UK economy), but ultimately hatched a plan to smuggle a well-known deadly and addictive drug into Chinese ports: Opium, which has been known to grow well in the India colony / Afghanistan and is also related to heroine / morphine / opioids. (3) The UK's drug smuggling cartel via the British East India Company and backed by their navy eventually causes huge problems for Chinese citizens and their every day life. People are dieing. The Chinese government then organizes special anti-drug smuggling operations to end the illegal drug cartel's drug smuggling. (4) War starts. The Opium Wars. Plural. The UK navy steps in, the Chinese military was defeated, and this was all to force the Chinese to permit the UK drug cartels to continue operating. Part of the treaty ending one of these Opium wars allows Hong Kong to be leased to the UK for them to set up an offensive post on Chinese territory from which to continue poisoning the Chinese public. (5) HKs economic miracle was propped up by drug smuggling and money laundering and tax haven status. It wasn't much of a miracle. Drug smuggling and tax dodging are universally condemned both in the West and China. (6) The public in HK is losing features of Western civilization (like a free press and anti-beijing school programs) as they transition back to governance by the broader Chinese civilization. (7) There IS a small degree of turmoil as HK society is re-organized, but it should be understood in context. Transition from Civ A to Civ B, who both have completely different systems of law.
mytailorisrich 5y ago
The Sino-British declaration was a way for the UK to save face and to sell the handing over of HK. It's naive or disingenuous to claim that China would do anything but whatever they wished to within a Chinese territory. Ultimately HK will be fully reabsorbed back into the rest of China. That was always the plan and that was always going to happen. That said, HK is still separate so China is still broadly abiding by the declaration. What the West needs to realize is that China is no longer a pushover that can be bullied at will. There is still a whiff of colonialism when Western media discuss HK.

throwaway4good 5y ago

Exactly how is this a breach of the agreement? Formally this is done by the HK government/police. Is a breach of the general principle of two systems, or is there a more specific clause that is breached?

bigbillheck 5y ago

> The West needs to realize: China does not uphold its own treaties Does any major power?

EGreg 5y ago
Ask the Native Americans Or these guys: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/world/asia/white-house-faults-gop-senators-letter-to-irans-leaders.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/10/world/asia/white-house-fa... Or this: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/06/793895401/iraqi-parliament-votes-to-expel-u-s-troops-trump-threatens-sanctions https://www.npr.org/2020/01/06/793895401/iraqi-parliament-vo... Yet just because someone acts badly, doesn’t mean we the People should lower standards for the whole world.

throwawayHK 5y ago

The big loophole is the provision for China's intervention in matters of "National Security". This is exactly what has been used to craft very vague language that basically allows authorities to treat anything that goes counter to China's official line as a "threat to National Security". It's so vague that self-censorship is now omnipresent in what was, just a few years ago, a bastion of freedom of speech in Asia. Newspaper and political figures are afraid of being targetted for their perceived dissent, and there is no real recourse, with pressure on judges to fall in line. It is a farce of course, but there will be no international action. The British have no recourse to enforce the treaty. China will invade HK with tanks before they release their tightening grip on it, and the world will watch and do nothing of course. It's not just democracy that is under threat in HK. There never was any to start with. It's plain freedom of speech that is under threat.

baybal2 5y ago
UK has all means to successfully use force, and secure its gains - that's the military reality on the ground. It has an amphibious force to land a division, more with requisitioned civilian vessels, and it has thermonuclear weapons to threaten chokepoints — more than enough to get the peninsula. UK is not a small military. With mobilised territorials, and first line conscripts, it will be as much as 10-12 divisions ready on short order.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Moodles 5y ago
- mrpopo 5y ago
  This would be the worst course of action. The Chinese population is propagandized enough and won't hesitate to go to war head-on against the West.
  - Moodles 5y ago
    It is an interesting question on how to deprogram the pro-communist party populous. All the brainwashed types I’ve ever spoken to believe the most insane things despite otherwise being intelligent people. E.g. Covid was made by the US to frame China. They also seem to conflate criticism of the CCP with Chinese people in general. I suspect many of the people behind the troll pro-China accounts commenting here are doing this (or they’re just paid). (Guys, CCP is anti-Chinese people. If you love China, don’t support this oppressive regime because one day they’ll come for you and your family.) How do we overdone this?
    - karmasimida 5y ago
      Try convince people vaccine is good/bad for them, you got a ticket for a ride already. Accept it is a fact that people who you thought is unreasonable thought precisely the same about you.

champagnois 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago
Sure: they made a deal. But now they are breaking some of the terms of that deal. And that's not nice to the people in Hong Kong.
- champagnois 5y ago
  Your intentional aversion to the full context doesn't help anyone understand the situation. When people do not understand any context, they are lead to believe the situation is absurd and is occurring for no reason at all. Full context allows the public to have a sense of things. Here is an honest attempt building a storey via several separate but related facts: (1) In the 1800s, Europe had essentially lost a tradewar with China. The Chinese economy was somewhat of a marvel of the 1700s-1800s, studied by US presidents and founding fathers like Ben Franklin even. (2) The UK couldn't produce anything the Chinese wanted to buy (a goal to help the UK economy), but ultimately hatched a plan to smuggle a well-known deadly and addictive drug into Chinese ports: Opium, which has been known to grow well in the India colony / Afghanistan and is also related to heroine / morphine / opioids. (3) The UK's drug smuggling cartel via the British East India Company and backed by their navy eventually causes huge problems for Chinese citizens and their every day life. People are dieing. The Chinese government then organizes special anti-drug smuggling operations to end the illegal drug cartel's drug smuggling. (4) War starts. The Opium Wars. Plural. The UK navy steps in, the Chinese military was defeated, and this was all to force the Chinese to permit the UK drug cartels to continue operating. Part of the treaty ending one of these Opium wars allows Hong Kong to be leased to the UK for them to set up an offensive post on Chinese territory from which to continue poisoning the Chinese public. (5) HKs economic miracle was propped up by drug smuggling and money laundering and tax haven status. It wasn't much of a miracle. Drug smuggling and tax dodging are universally condemned both in the West and China. (6) The public in HK is losing features of Western civilization (like a free press and anti-beijing school programs) as they transition back to governance by the broader Chinese civilization. (7) There IS a small degree of turmoil as HK society is re-organized, but it should be understood in context. Transition from Civ A to Civ B, who both have completely different systems of law.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

The Sino-British declaration was a way for the UK to save face and to sell the handing over of HK. It's naive or disingenuous to claim that China would do anything but whatever they wished to within a Chinese territory. Ultimately HK will be fully reabsorbed back into the rest of China. That was always the plan and that was always going to happen. That said, HK is still separate so China is still broadly abiding by the declaration. What the West needs to realize is that China is no longer a pushover that can be bullied at will. There is still a whiff of colonialism when Western media discuss HK.