5 ms·

Brazillian businessman built a giant perpetual engine

29 points by marcodiego 5y ago

Gys 5y ago
Needs [2013]
sschueller 5y ago
No surprise but I guess it didn't work, the article is from 2016 and the website no longer exists...
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  The article is from 2016? It looks like it's from 2013 to me, though admittedly updated in 2015. I found some surprisingly open-minded English-language coverage, also from 2013: https://e-catworld.com/2013/09/28/brazilian-company-building-claimed-gravity-engine/ https://e-catworld.com/2013/09/28/brazilian-company-building... https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/new-gravity-driven-generator-promised-for-gilman-soy-processor https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/new-gravity-driven-gene... > One blogger with a Brazilian radio station dismisses the project as an impossible perpetual motion machine. Even if it’s not quite that, University of Illinois Electrical Engineering Professor Peter Sauer said he’s never seen a gravity-driven device work without some additional energy input. Didn't see any coverage after 2013. I wonder what the idea was. You can't announce a perpetual motion machine without being aware that there's no such thing.
forinti 5y ago
I wrote them then asking for more details and inquiring about financing, but they never replied. I was hoping to divine from their reply if they actually believed in this or were just looking to con investors.
dvh 5y ago
Here's why any rotating perpetuum mobile device cannot work regardless of the principle (gravity, magnets, springs, balls, ...). Anything that moves on it's own is moving because it is lowering it's potential energy. You start at 12 o'clock, and it moves to 3 o'clock because there, it will have lower potential energy. Then it continue to move but eventually it will reach the starting point (because it is circular). But you already know that potential energy there is higher, so the device will not move there because it wants to lower it's potential energy, not raise it. So any device that at some point reaches it's starting configuration cannot work because the potential energy is the same. If you put ball on flat plane it will not move sideways because potential energy is the same there.
- forinti 5y ago
  There's a large university in that town and it has a Physics department. Before this bloke spent his money building this thing, he should have called them up and asked them a few questions.
  - ratww 5y ago
    At the end of the page it seems the university offered some unrequested advice on the second law of thermodynamics. It was dismissed on the grounds of the sun being "eternal" and gravity being an energy that can be "harvested" in the same way solar energy can.
    - vasco 5y ago
      They are right in the sense that you can count on the earth to pull your stuff down for free, they just forgot they have to put it back up themselves.
      - drran 5y ago
        Earth rotation and Moon orbiting can do a massive amount of work (see tide waves), but energy density is very low.
- Const-me 5y ago
  > because it is lowering it's potential energy. There’s also kinetic energy. The Earth rotates, and we have the Moon. It’s theoretically possible to build a machine which harvests energy from that rotation. Tides are powered by that energy, it’s obvious one could build a machine to extract energy from tidal waves in the ocean. It should be possible to build a machine which extracts that energy directly, without the water. Probably not practical because the energy density is too low, and the machine needs to be prohibitively massive.
  - ac29 5y ago
    Tidal power is definitely a thing, and there are large commercial operations running today. The largest produces 552 GWh / year. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power
jpedbad 5y ago
what a waste of time and resources
scandox 5y ago
There was an Irish company called Steorn in this "space" between 2006 and 2016. I was invited in 2006/7 to a discussion of the company's technology hosted by the CEO. I was there with a small group of journalists and potential investors. I was there because a publisher I was involved with was contemplating a book about them. What amazed me was how low the bar is for people to discuss something seriously. There were glaring inconsistencies in their presentation and in the associated materials. The back story they told was completely different to the story which the author of the book had outlined to us. Even quite basic questions were deflected in the most obvious way. I am absolutely not a scientist but there were very simple and obvious gaps in what they described. Nevertheless people's politeness and/or credulity prevented any serious discussion taking place.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  I suspect it's because if you push them, you don't get better answers, but you might get a lot of shouting and swearing. There's no point in poking holes in their theories because they believe them and cannot be persuaded otherwise. So you just quietly sit through their presentation, poke a couple holes that the audience already knows exist, and watch them fail to answer it. Done.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    If you check my other comment, the English-language coverage I found, which just involves journalists communicating to an audience with no interested party involved anywhere, is also written in a surprisingly credulous style. (Yes, acknowledging that no machine of this type has ever failed to be fraudulent. But doing so in a low-key, hope-the-reader-doesn't-notice kind of way.)
- time0ut 5y ago
  I remember thinking at the time that it was just a viral/digital marketing stunt. In other words, not a demo of a violation of conservation of energy, but a demo of how much buzz they could generate. Does anyone have any in depth material detailing the saga?
- 5y ago
knolan 5y ago
I’m always amazed how little ambition proponents of perpetual motion machines have. They always talk about not having to pay their energy bill or charge their smartphone ever again. Here in Ireland we had Steorn[0] which resulted in much amusement at the time. I still remember their failed London demonstration where their device refused to work due to the heat from the lights… However, if you can generate free energy then you are like a god. You can use chains of even the most crappy perpetual motion machine to generate infinite energy and construct the most fantastical machines, who cares how much energy they consume! You could conquer planets and command your own vast galactic empire. You are only limited by your imagination since infinite energy is available to do whatever you desire. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn
- vasco 5y ago
  You'd probably go to jail for trying to operate your own power generation plant. Curious thought process, how succeed given an infinite power machine. I'm sure I'd manage to fumble it.
  - knolan 5y ago
    You can fumble as much as you like. It doesn’t matter how crazy your vast ostentatious space palace is or how inefficient it is, you have infinite energy. You therefore have infinite compute. You won’t even need to think.
    - moonbug 5y ago
      > You therefore have infinite compute. You won’t even need to think. Peak HN.
- drran 5y ago
  You forgot about power, size, and cost. I can create a device, which will harvest 1W of power from starlight infinitely. Good luck with your ambitions.
  - 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
postexitus 5y ago
Such odd timing - in Turkey we had breaking news of the invention of a perpetual energy machine called "Erke Donergeci (Erke Recirculation Machine)" just around the same time, 2006-2007 I believe - backed by some high ranking military officers and opinion leaders, which disappeared as quickly as it appeared. Funny enough, the company is still around. Wikipedia entry: https://tr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Erke_D%C3%B6nergeci?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB https://tr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Erke_D%C3%B6n... Company website and their list of patents: http://www.erketurk.com/faaliyetlerimiz-en.asp http://www.erketurk.com/faaliyetlerimiz-en.asp
jakedata 5y ago
Unfortunately I was unable to find any video of that marvelous contraption in motion. Even if it does not violate any of the three guidelines of thermodynamics I think it might be quite pretty to watch, much like a kinetic sculpture. Perhaps connect it to some solar panels so it starts undulating on sunny days.
- karmakaze 5y ago
  That was my first thought that it looked like an art installation. Making it bigger makes it more impressive, and may hide losses or make them smaller to appear perpetual.
ganzuul 5y ago
There is serious work being done on chiral metamaterials which may have the ability to reverse or diminish the Cashimir effect. Note that this fact laughs in the face of all the self-assured debunkers coming out of the woodwork who are making claims way beyond their education. General relativity does not preserve energy!
- c-cube 5y ago
  If you're going to spout pseudo scientific babble, at least spell "Casimir effect" properly. Please enlighten us poorly educated about this upcoming revolution, though!
KSPAtlas 5y ago
Perpetual motion machines will never work out, as the laws of thermodynamics forbid the creation of energy
flaviojuvenal 5y ago
More pictures of this bizarre thing here: https://www.hypeness.com.br/2014/01/empresa-brasileira-desenvolve-maquina-que-gera-energia-usando-a-gravidade/ https://www.hypeness.com.br/2014/01/empresa-brasileira-desen...
jakedata 5y ago
If that machine still exists it should be relocated to the front court of a science museum as a lesson to others.
WorldPeas 5y ago
I wonder if these beautiful machines would be usable as compact flywheels. It certainly seems like the energy industry needs them from my armchair perspective

29 points by marcodiego 5y ago

Gys 5y ago

Needs [2013]

sschueller 5y ago

No surprise but I guess it didn't work, the article is from 2016 and the website no longer exists...

thaumasiotes 5y ago
The article is from 2016? It looks like it's from 2013 to me, though admittedly updated in 2015. I found some surprisingly open-minded English-language coverage, also from 2013: https://e-catworld.com/2013/09/28/brazilian-company-building-claimed-gravity-engine/ https://e-catworld.com/2013/09/28/brazilian-company-building... https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/new-gravity-driven-generator-promised-for-gilman-soy-processor https://will.illinois.edu/news/story/new-gravity-driven-gene... > One blogger with a Brazilian radio station dismisses the project as an impossible perpetual motion machine. Even if it’s not quite that, University of Illinois Electrical Engineering Professor Peter Sauer said he’s never seen a gravity-driven device work without some additional energy input. Didn't see any coverage after 2013. I wonder what the idea was. You can't announce a perpetual motion machine without being aware that there's no such thing.

forinti 5y ago

I wrote them then asking for more details and inquiring about financing, but they never replied. I was hoping to divine from their reply if they actually believed in this or were just looking to con investors.

dvh 5y ago

Here's why any rotating perpetuum mobile device cannot work regardless of the principle (gravity, magnets, springs, balls, ...). Anything that moves on it's own is moving because it is lowering it's potential energy. You start at 12 o'clock, and it moves to 3 o'clock because there, it will have lower potential energy. Then it continue to move but eventually it will reach the starting point (because it is circular). But you already know that potential energy there is higher, so the device will not move there because it wants to lower it's potential energy, not raise it. So any device that at some point reaches it's starting configuration cannot work because the potential energy is the same. If you put ball on flat plane it will not move sideways because potential energy is the same there.

forinti 5y ago
There's a large university in that town and it has a Physics department. Before this bloke spent his money building this thing, he should have called them up and asked them a few questions.
- ratww 5y ago
  At the end of the page it seems the university offered some unrequested advice on the second law of thermodynamics. It was dismissed on the grounds of the sun being "eternal" and gravity being an energy that can be "harvested" in the same way solar energy can.
  - vasco 5y ago
    They are right in the sense that you can count on the earth to pull your stuff down for free, they just forgot they have to put it back up themselves.
    - drran 5y ago
      Earth rotation and Moon orbiting can do a massive amount of work (see tide waves), but energy density is very low.
Const-me 5y ago
> because it is lowering it's potential energy. There’s also kinetic energy. The Earth rotates, and we have the Moon. It’s theoretically possible to build a machine which harvests energy from that rotation. Tides are powered by that energy, it’s obvious one could build a machine to extract energy from tidal waves in the ocean. It should be possible to build a machine which extracts that energy directly, without the water. Probably not practical because the energy density is too low, and the machine needs to be prohibitively massive.
- ac29 5y ago
  Tidal power is definitely a thing, and there are large commercial operations running today. The largest produces 552 GWh / year. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power

jpedbad 5y ago

what a waste of time and resources

scandox 5y ago

There was an Irish company called Steorn in this "space" between 2006 and 2016. I was invited in 2006/7 to a discussion of the company's technology hosted by the CEO. I was there with a small group of journalists and potential investors. I was there because a publisher I was involved with was contemplating a book about them. What amazed me was how low the bar is for people to discuss something seriously. There were glaring inconsistencies in their presentation and in the associated materials. The back story they told was completely different to the story which the author of the book had outlined to us. Even quite basic questions were deflected in the most obvious way. I am absolutely not a scientist but there were very simple and obvious gaps in what they described. Nevertheless people's politeness and/or credulity prevented any serious discussion taking place.

wccrawford 5y ago
I suspect it's because if you push them, you don't get better answers, but you might get a lot of shouting and swearing. There's no point in poking holes in their theories because they believe them and cannot be persuaded otherwise. So you just quietly sit through their presentation, poke a couple holes that the audience already knows exist, and watch them fail to answer it. Done.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  If you check my other comment, the English-language coverage I found, which just involves journalists communicating to an audience with no interested party involved anywhere, is also written in a surprisingly credulous style. (Yes, acknowledging that no machine of this type has ever failed to be fraudulent. But doing so in a low-key, hope-the-reader-doesn't-notice kind of way.)
time0ut 5y ago
I remember thinking at the time that it was just a viral/digital marketing stunt. In other words, not a demo of a violation of conservation of energy, but a demo of how much buzz they could generate. Does anyone have any in depth material detailing the saga?
5y ago

knolan 5y ago

I’m always amazed how little ambition proponents of perpetual motion machines have. They always talk about not having to pay their energy bill or charge their smartphone ever again. Here in Ireland we had Steorn[0] which resulted in much amusement at the time. I still remember their failed London demonstration where their device refused to work due to the heat from the lights… However, if you can generate free energy then you are like a god. You can use chains of even the most crappy perpetual motion machine to generate infinite energy and construct the most fantastical machines, who cares how much energy they consume! You could conquer planets and command your own vast galactic empire. You are only limited by your imagination since infinite energy is available to do whatever you desire. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn

vasco 5y ago
You'd probably go to jail for trying to operate your own power generation plant. Curious thought process, how succeed given an infinite power machine. I'm sure I'd manage to fumble it.
- knolan 5y ago
  You can fumble as much as you like. It doesn’t matter how crazy your vast ostentatious space palace is or how inefficient it is, you have infinite energy. You therefore have infinite compute. You won’t even need to think.
  - moonbug 5y ago
    > You therefore have infinite compute. You won’t even need to think. Peak HN.
drran 5y ago
You forgot about power, size, and cost. I can create a device, which will harvest 1W of power from starlight infinitely. Good luck with your ambitions.
- 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

postexitus 5y ago

Such odd timing - in Turkey we had breaking news of the invention of a perpetual energy machine called "Erke Donergeci (Erke Recirculation Machine)" just around the same time, 2006-2007 I believe - backed by some high ranking military officers and opinion leaders, which disappeared as quickly as it appeared. Funny enough, the company is still around. Wikipedia entry: https://tr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Erke_D%C3%B6nergeci?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-GB https://tr-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Erke_D%C3%B6n... Company website and their list of patents: http://www.erketurk.com/faaliyetlerimiz-en.asp http://www.erketurk.com/faaliyetlerimiz-en.asp

jakedata 5y ago

Unfortunately I was unable to find any video of that marvelous contraption in motion. Even if it does not violate any of the three guidelines of thermodynamics I think it might be quite pretty to watch, much like a kinetic sculpture. Perhaps connect it to some solar panels so it starts undulating on sunny days.

karmakaze 5y ago
That was my first thought that it looked like an art installation. Making it bigger makes it more impressive, and may hide losses or make them smaller to appear perpetual.

ganzuul 5y ago

There is serious work being done on chiral metamaterials which may have the ability to reverse or diminish the Cashimir effect. Note that this fact laughs in the face of all the self-assured debunkers coming out of the woodwork who are making claims way beyond their education. General relativity does not preserve energy!

c-cube 5y ago
If you're going to spout pseudo scientific babble, at least spell "Casimir effect" properly. Please enlighten us poorly educated about this upcoming revolution, though!

KSPAtlas 5y ago

Perpetual motion machines will never work out, as the laws of thermodynamics forbid the creation of energy

flaviojuvenal 5y ago

More pictures of this bizarre thing here: https://www.hypeness.com.br/2014/01/empresa-brasileira-desenvolve-maquina-que-gera-energia-usando-a-gravidade/ https://www.hypeness.com.br/2014/01/empresa-brasileira-desen...

jakedata 5y ago

If that machine still exists it should be relocated to the front court of a science museum as a lesson to others.

WorldPeas 5y ago

I wonder if these beautiful machines would be usable as compact flywheels. It certainly seems like the energy industry needs them from my armchair perspective