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U.S. Became 'Arrogant' After USSR Collapsed, Gorbachev Says 30 Years Later

31 points by vanusa 5y ago

ggm 5y ago
Francis Fukayama and "the end of history" comes to mind. I do think there's truth in the line of reasoning here. Firstly, pushing over a weakened wall you lit fires against these last 70 years is hardly a thumping victory. Meantime, the benefits of military spending got you there but now the cash needs to be spent other ways the US is struggling to convert over and has hollowed out its economy to consumer dominated, little manufacturing and huge dependence on adversarial external sources of goods and raw materials. Hollow victory? Many British people believe Germany won the peace. Arguably Japan did too. The upsides for forced reconstruction which appear to have passed the USSR by because of kleptocracy. Given another spin of the wheel with better computing, maybe central planning in the USSR would have arrived at a different place: consider Vietnam which still runs many national public monopolies, and has a mixed economy with state planning. The USA is still the dominant economy, but it needs to look to the foundations, infrastructure, the necessary shift to green energy, social dislocation, lack of public health. Russia is not the real enemy, nuclear arms aside, as most politicians recognize. Casting out at China is a very odd move to take, with no significant point of tension Taiwan aside. Really, it's the economy. Nobody really cares about the moral issues.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  > Casting out at China is a very odd move to take, with no significant point of tension Taiwan aside Highly debatable, and I would say not supported by the facts. Look at what their Merchant Marine fleet has done toward weaker powers such as the Philippines. If we don't check their behavior now, it will be more difficult to stop in the future.
  - ggm 5y ago
    This is the "the US are the international police of the world" view. I agree what China does in the Spratleys is insanely bad, but its hardly close to the territorial waters of the USA unless you consider the former Philippines colony part of the USA still. The right time to deal with this, was 30 years ago.
    - captainredbeard 5y ago
      > This is the "the US are the international police of the world" view No, it's the "US is the top power and wants to maintain primacy" view, which I wholeheartedly endorse.
Nginx487 5y ago
"President Vladimir Putin has grown increasingly critical about NATO’s expansion..." Did he realize that NATO did not invade these countries, like Russia did to Georgia and Ukraine, and NATO membership is the choice of its people? Remembering terrorist attacks of Russia in the Czech Republic and Bulgaria, and using chemical weapons on the territory of the UK, such a decision seems to have a rational reason.
- mthoms 5y ago
  Exactly. Annexing parts of Ukraine, and then complaining that Ukraine joining a defensive alliance is a threat is beyond absurd. If they didn't want Ukraine to join NATO, maybe Russia shouldn't have gone out and demonstrated to the entire world precisely why Ukraine needs NATO protection.
  - Mountain_Skies 5y ago
    'Would, should, could' isn't useful in Realpolitik. We're going to 'would, should, could' right into the very situation we claim to want to avoid. Gorbachev is correct, we're arrogant, believing we can make the world conform to our desires simply because they are our desires. It doesn't matter if Russia is right or wrong. It matters what Russia is going to do, both on their own and in reaction to what we do. The Ukraine mess is avoidable but we're arrogant and think we are right therefore reality will bend to our desire. This is extremely dangerous thinking, especially when dealing with nuclear powers.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    Both this comment and its parent have the basic chronology backwards, specifically in regard to Ukraine. Whose moves to join NATO began in 2008 -- a full six years before the annexation of Crimea. Also, especially since the Kosovo intervention it seems moot to refer to NATO as a "defensive alliance". It is an instrument through which its leading partners project power throughout the region, and the Russians know that.
    - LatteLazy 5y ago
gringo_flamingo 5y ago
I figured I would put in my two cents; The US Government and its affiliates are terrorists. To be clear, in just the same way we perceive external threats. We have bombed and killed children, raped and pillaged, and destroyed entire cultures. This is humanity. The reality is survival of the fittest, and reality is not morally correct, it is in fact about what is amorally correct. Can't make everyone happy, and what rational mind would sacrifice their own for another to survive. Not a one, because we are selfish (Which is good, it keeps alive to a degree). Are ego's will always say we are good, if you are into that kind of denial of self-service. But for me, I know that I am human, and I live with a planet full of humans. Humans are Mammals, Mammals are Animals, Animals don't have morals; they do what they will to survive.
ncmncm 5y ago
The US was already arrogant. Since WWII, at least. But with ever-decreasing justification.

31 points by vanusa 5y ago

ggm 5y ago

Francis Fukayama and "the end of history" comes to mind. I do think there's truth in the line of reasoning here. Firstly, pushing over a weakened wall you lit fires against these last 70 years is hardly a thumping victory. Meantime, the benefits of military spending got you there but now the cash needs to be spent other ways the US is struggling to convert over and has hollowed out its economy to consumer dominated, little manufacturing and huge dependence on adversarial external sources of goods and raw materials. Hollow victory? Many British people believe Germany won the peace. Arguably Japan did too. The upsides for forced reconstruction which appear to have passed the USSR by because of kleptocracy. Given another spin of the wheel with better computing, maybe central planning in the USSR would have arrived at a different place: consider Vietnam which still runs many national public monopolies, and has a mixed economy with state planning. The USA is still the dominant economy, but it needs to look to the foundations, infrastructure, the necessary shift to green energy, social dislocation, lack of public health. Russia is not the real enemy, nuclear arms aside, as most politicians recognize. Casting out at China is a very odd move to take, with no significant point of tension Taiwan aside. Really, it's the economy. Nobody really cares about the moral issues.

captainredbeard 5y ago
> Casting out at China is a very odd move to take, with no significant point of tension Taiwan aside Highly debatable, and I would say not supported by the facts. Look at what their Merchant Marine fleet has done toward weaker powers such as the Philippines. If we don't check their behavior now, it will be more difficult to stop in the future.
- ggm 5y ago
  This is the "the US are the international police of the world" view. I agree what China does in the Spratleys is insanely bad, but its hardly close to the territorial waters of the USA unless you consider the former Philippines colony part of the USA still. The right time to deal with this, was 30 years ago.
  - captainredbeard 5y ago
    > This is the "the US are the international police of the world" view No, it's the "US is the top power and wants to maintain primacy" view, which I wholeheartedly endorse.

Nginx487 5y ago

"President Vladimir Putin has grown increasingly critical about NATO’s expansion..." Did he realize that NATO did not invade these countries, like Russia did to Georgia and Ukraine, and NATO membership is the choice of its people? Remembering terrorist attacks of Russia in the Czech Republic and Bulgaria, and using chemical weapons on the territory of the UK, such a decision seems to have a rational reason.

mthoms 5y ago
Exactly. Annexing parts of Ukraine, and then complaining that Ukraine joining a defensive alliance is a threat is beyond absurd. If they didn't want Ukraine to join NATO, maybe Russia shouldn't have gone out and demonstrated to the entire world precisely why Ukraine needs NATO protection.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  'Would, should, could' isn't useful in Realpolitik. We're going to 'would, should, could' right into the very situation we claim to want to avoid. Gorbachev is correct, we're arrogant, believing we can make the world conform to our desires simply because they are our desires. It doesn't matter if Russia is right or wrong. It matters what Russia is going to do, both on their own and in reaction to what we do. The Ukraine mess is avoidable but we're arrogant and think we are right therefore reality will bend to our desire. This is extremely dangerous thinking, especially when dealing with nuclear powers.
- vanusa 5y ago
  Both this comment and its parent have the basic chronology backwards, specifically in regard to Ukraine. Whose moves to join NATO began in 2008 -- a full six years before the annexation of Crimea. Also, especially since the Kosovo intervention it seems moot to refer to NATO as a "defensive alliance". It is an instrument through which its leading partners project power throughout the region, and the Russians know that.
  - LatteLazy 5y ago

gringo_flamingo 5y ago

I figured I would put in my two cents; The US Government and its affiliates are terrorists. To be clear, in just the same way we perceive external threats. We have bombed and killed children, raped and pillaged, and destroyed entire cultures. This is humanity. The reality is survival of the fittest, and reality is not morally correct, it is in fact about what is amorally correct. Can't make everyone happy, and what rational mind would sacrifice their own for another to survive. Not a one, because we are selfish (Which is good, it keeps alive to a degree). Are ego's will always say we are good, if you are into that kind of denial of self-service. But for me, I know that I am human, and I live with a planet full of humans. Humans are Mammals, Mammals are Animals, Animals don't have morals; they do what they will to survive.

ncmncm 5y ago

The US was already arrogant. Since WWII, at least. But with ever-decreasing justification.