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Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Therefore, as with other academic

Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Therefore, as with other academic disciplines, the ratio of academic tenure-track job openings to new PhD's looking for academic jobs is >> 1, even if you look at industry demand for PhD's.

throwawaygh 5y ago
> yes? No. The trope you're repeating here has some truth in the humanities and some natural sciences, but it's not true in CS. Industry has a veracious appetite for CS PhDs. Only 40% of PhDS stay in academia, and of those only a fraction take jobs at universities that grant PhDs. Tenured CS professors somewhat leave for industry at much higher rates than other fields. Meanwhile, undergraduate enrollments have surged without a corresponding increase in PhD enrollment. Multiple sources of demand are surging, but supply is waning. From a CRA report on the subject: The demand for PhD’s in computer science (CS) in the US continues to outpace the supply. Both industry and academia struggle to fill positions. Since 2014, approximately 2000 CS PhDs have been awarded annually and about 60% of new PhD graduates take jobs in industry [ZwBi19]. The rapid growth in undergraduate CS enrollments during the last decade has significantly increased the number of open faculty positions at academic institutions, but has so far not led to an increase in the number of PhDs graduated. Historically, US PhD programs have relied heavily on international students. Figure 1 shows the number of CS PhDs awarded annually to domestic and international students since 1985. The percentage of domestic PhD students graduating decreased from 69% in 1985 to 37% in 2018. The reliance on international students to drive innovation and leadership in computing research in the US has become unstable as international students increasingly face obstacles or disincentives to study in the US, and an increasing number return home to attractive opportunities after graduation from a US university. Moreover, some areas of computing have security implications that make positions in those areas inaccessible to non-US nationals. The continuing demand for PhDs in computer science combined with this instability of international student participation requires bold action to increase the number of domestic students completing a PhD in computer science. https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-National-Need-for-Increasing-Domestic-PhD-Yield-in-CS.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-Nation...
- labcomputer 5y ago
  So... Why don't CS PhD's get together to do what medical doctors do and form a cartel to further limit the number of PhDs that are granted each year? The current supply/demand imbalance sounds like the perfect leverage to get the ball rolling. Institutions that don't play ball could be boycotted. A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative. Probably not. Industry would route around the PhD system. Academia would just hire folks with masters degrees as ad juncts. In order for such a scheme to work, you need a licensing regime. If anyone could practice medicine at any hospital by passing an on-site interview, the AMA would have substantially less power.
ModernMech 5y ago
> Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Let's take a look at this oft-repeated claim. If we consider the Taulbee CS department survey [0], we can see the breakdown of the CS faculty population. Based on the survey, we see 32% are old-guard full professors, 16% associate professors, 20% assistant professors, 20% teaching faculty, 5% research faculty, and 5% postdocs. These are all positions with a PhD as a requirement. This tells us that about 49% of the CS department faculty has tenure, while 51% is either working toward it or will never have it. Within that 51% there's a lot of churn. Many in that group will fail to achieve tenure. Others will work for a 3-5 year contract and move on afterward. That's also not to say that tenured faculty never quit. Some leave academia for industry. Others go on sabbatical. Others leave for the NSF or some other institution. Others are poached by another department for a chair position. Some will leave once their spouse gets tenure at a superior institution. Others will go home to their native country. So while it is true there are only so many positions, openings are happening all the time. If you look at where CS PhDs are going after they graduate, we see that ~55% are going straight into industry, while only 30% are sticking around to find an academic job. This is a testament to the draw of industry in the CS field, and doesn't even capture the draw for faculty, which can be much stronger (much higher comps offered for experienced researchers as opposed to newly minted PhDs). [0] https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-Survey.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-...

throwawaygh 5y ago

> yes? No. The trope you're repeating here has some truth in the humanities and some natural sciences, but it's not true in CS. Industry has a veracious appetite for CS PhDs. Only 40% of PhDS stay in academia, and of those only a fraction take jobs at universities that grant PhDs. Tenured CS professors somewhat leave for industry at much higher rates than other fields. Meanwhile, undergraduate enrollments have surged without a corresponding increase in PhD enrollment. Multiple sources of demand are surging, but supply is waning. From a CRA report on the subject: The demand for PhD’s in computer science (CS) in the US continues to outpace the supply. Both industry and academia struggle to fill positions. Since 2014, approximately 2000 CS PhDs have been awarded annually and about 60% of new PhD graduates take jobs in industry [ZwBi19]. The rapid growth in undergraduate CS enrollments during the last decade has significantly increased the number of open faculty positions at academic institutions, but has so far not led to an increase in the number of PhDs graduated. Historically, US PhD programs have relied heavily on international students. Figure 1 shows the number of CS PhDs awarded annually to domestic and international students since 1985. The percentage of domestic PhD students graduating decreased from 69% in 1985 to 37% in 2018. The reliance on international students to drive innovation and leadership in computing research in the US has become unstable as international students increasingly face obstacles or disincentives to study in the US, and an increasing number return home to attractive opportunities after graduation from a US university. Moreover, some areas of computing have security implications that make positions in those areas inaccessible to non-US nationals. The continuing demand for PhDs in computer science combined with this instability of international student participation requires bold action to increase the number of domestic students completing a PhD in computer science. https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-National-Need-for-Increasing-Domestic-PhD-Yield-in-CS.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Addressing-Nation...

labcomputer 5y ago
So... Why don't CS PhD's get together to do what medical doctors do and form a cartel to further limit the number of PhDs that are granted each year? The current supply/demand imbalance sounds like the perfect leverage to get the ball rolling. Institutions that don't play ball could be boycotted. A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > A good number of specialties in medicine have a median income in the upper two thirds of the six digit range. It seems like limiting production of CS PhDs could be equally lucrative. Probably not. Industry would route around the PhD system. Academia would just hire folks with masters degrees as ad juncts. In order for such a scheme to work, you need a licensing regime. If anyone could practice medicine at any hospital by passing an on-site interview, the AMA would have substantially less power.

ModernMech 5y ago

> Most academic professors in CS are mentoring much more than one PhD students over the course of their academic careers, yes? Let's take a look at this oft-repeated claim. If we consider the Taulbee CS department survey [0], we can see the breakdown of the CS faculty population. Based on the survey, we see 32% are old-guard full professors, 16% associate professors, 20% assistant professors, 20% teaching faculty, 5% research faculty, and 5% postdocs. These are all positions with a PhD as a requirement. This tells us that about 49% of the CS department faculty has tenure, while 51% is either working toward it or will never have it. Within that 51% there's a lot of churn. Many in that group will fail to achieve tenure. Others will work for a 3-5 year contract and move on afterward. That's also not to say that tenured faculty never quit. Some leave academia for industry. Others go on sabbatical. Others leave for the NSF or some other institution. Others are poached by another department for a chair position. Some will leave once their spouse gets tenure at a superior institution. Others will go home to their native country. So while it is true there are only so many positions, openings are happening all the time. If you look at where CS PhDs are going after they graduate, we see that ~55% are going straight into industry, while only 30% are sticking around to find an academic job. This is a testament to the draw of industry in the CS field, and doesn't even capture the draw for faculty, which can be much stronger (much higher comps offered for experienced researchers as opposed to newly minted PhDs). [0] https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-Survey.pdf https://cra.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/2020-CRA-Taulbee-...