4 ms·

Seems like proper dogfooding The "it wasn't part of the job description" engineer would be on my short list for reevaluation. In a dynamic org, change is cons

by toss1 5y ago

Seems like proper dogfooding The "it wasn't part of the job description" engineer would be on my short list for reevaluation. In a dynamic org, change is constant, and stick-in-the-mud complainers like this range from underproductive to actively toxic. If it's just an isolated bad day, fine, but if it's an underlying 'not-my'job' attitude, then they're likely better employed elsewhere. This practice should be pretty standard, as well as flexible roles & responsibilities, mentoring/interning, etc. to spread & grow knowledge as much as possible.

swongel 5y ago
That's a nice way to say "Do what I tell you regardless of what we agreed your role would be or I fire you". Talk about toxic, this kind of garbage is why workers need strong labor laws and unions protecting them.
- trixie_ 5y ago
  Great idea. The law should read like the employee cannot be fired if asked to do something not specified in their job description when hired. /s Maybe we should have laws as well to protect companies from rogue employees do things outside of their job descriptions.
  - swongel 5y ago
    Where I'm from (western europe) we have this, but unironically. Imagine the horror not having to worry over not being able to pay your mortgage or rent whenever your boss or some power tripping middle manager decided they want you to start juggling bowling pins while riding a unicycle while you were hired to develop software. Won't someone please think of the poor employers? /s
    - ericmay 5y ago
      How are tech salaries in Western Europe compared to the US? There are pros and cons. How would you hire someone at a startup? Do you specify they can only write code for the website and then if you need their help with something else they just say "not in my job description"? Eventually you'd just get contracts that have laundry lists of vague responsibilities to get around this and it would just wind up like standard terms of service for websites/electronics where people just sign and take the job. Too much money at stake to not do it and for little gain.
      - swongel 5y ago
        We have a justice system based on reasonable interpretation by judges, which is a bit less "strict" literal interpretation of contracts. Mine says "Software development", some collective bargaining agreements have more specific descriptions (to prevent under paying of employees by classifying them as lower salaries jobs). As a start-up you'd hire contractors which you'd pay a much higher fee for, as these wouldn't have the labor protections of employees. Salaries for contractors are I guess similar to the US maybe a bit lower, for salaries employees definitely lower than the US (for tech at least). But then again my rent is cheaper, and my insurances are cheaper too, I get PTO and unlimited sick-days, stuff like that. At the end of the day, if I want to make more money and not have many protections (like in the US) I'd become a contractor. (which does come with some strings attached to prevent employers from hiring normal employees like contractors). You have a choice over here for both models essentially.
        ericmay 5y ago
        > We have a justice system based on reasonable interpretation by judges, which is a bit less "strict" literal interpretation of contracts. We as in all of Western Europe or for a specific country? What are some examples you've seen where the US has "strict", literal interpretations of contracts that are unreasonable as it relates to employment/the topic at hand? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind immediately is maybe non-competes but I think that's an issue of leverage and not really a contractual issue, and even so it's risky for companies to enforce except for key employees. > As a start-up you'd hire contractors which you'd pay a much higher fee for, as these wouldn't have the labor protections of employees Isn't this just sidestepping the protection? And without needing to do an exhaustive list what are the labor protections? I assume there are like a minimum number of paid days off/holidays/vacation, exact job you'll do (though this is still vague to me how it's handled practically) and some protections around being fired/how you are fired? Is there a big protection for tech workers I'm missing? > But then again my rent is cheaper, and my insurances are cheaper too, I get PTO and unlimited sick-days, stuff like that. At the end of the day, if I want to make more money and not have many protections (like in the US) I'd become a contractor. (which does come with some strings attached to prevent employers from hiring normal employees like contractors). My "rent" (mortgage in this case) is pretty cheap and so is my insurance. I work remote for a great company, get PTO, and take it as you need it sick days and stuff like that too. Of course rental rates in certain markets (NY, SF, etc.) are much higher, as is compensation. $250k-$300k for many tech workers. I think that probably compensates for the higher costs though who knows what'll happen with the post-pandemic labor market (2024-2026 or so).
    - trixie_ 5y ago
      Funny how in your world the bad manager from your example would be difficult to fire as well.
      - swongel 5y ago
        So? They're employees too, I can handle a bad manager, I can't handle being fired over some bullshit. That manager has a mortgage too, you know? It's nothing personal, it's business.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    Don’t most job descriptions already include “and other duties as assigned”?
- icedchai 5y ago
  Most offer letters in the US have a line that includes "other duties as required" or similar. Job descriptions are generally extremely broad.
- toss1 5y ago
  >>That's a nice way to say "Do what I tell you regardless of what we agreed your role would be or I fire you". No, it is specifically NOT that. It is exactly what I said, expecting people to have a "Can Do / put your shoulder to the wheel / solve the problem" attitude, and to be flexible about how it gets done. Especially in a development situation (vs production that's been static for years). If the company failed to make clear at the beginning that it was a dynamic and changing environment, and that Can Do attitude is expected, then yeah, it is their fault. But even in relatively staid environments, a "not my job" attitude can become toxic and contagious in a hurry. Then, it may not be far before no one has a job. I'm strongly pro-union and pro-workers getting a larger slice of the economic pie. But I also recognize that the "not my job" attitude and over-constraining work rules is an enormous part of what lead to the demise of unions. Of course you don't want plumbers doing electrical work and vice-versa, but when a plumber or manager cannot toss a stray shovel onto the truck without a foreman/union/mgt meeting being called for stepping over the line (literally seen it happen), that's beyond unsustainable.
Mountain_Skies 5y ago
Sounds like a great way to end up even more short handed in a tight labor market, especially when there are plenty of other employers who aren't going to make similar demands. "My way or the highway" isn't a great policy when you need them much more than they need you.
- toss1 5y ago
  It is not a "my way or the highway"; it is expecting a "can do" attitude (and yes I understand that "my way or the highway" is toxic). Attitudes of "Can Do", "Solve the problem", "How do we get better than our competition" are pretty much the polar opposite of a "not my job" attitude. It is one thing to see in a low-level position, where a certain percentage of it is expected. But in a responsible position like serious software development, it's a red flag for lack of engagement. I've also seen it turn into an actively undermining the company attitude, which is toxic for everyone. I'd look for it to get fixed fast, or they're on the short list for "we don't really need to pay you to come here anymore" attitude.

by toss1 5y ago

swongel 5y ago

That's a nice way to say "Do what I tell you regardless of what we agreed your role would be or I fire you". Talk about toxic, this kind of garbage is why workers need strong labor laws and unions protecting them.

trixie_ 5y ago
Great idea. The law should read like the employee cannot be fired if asked to do something not specified in their job description when hired. /s Maybe we should have laws as well to protect companies from rogue employees do things outside of their job descriptions.
- swongel 5y ago
  Where I'm from (western europe) we have this, but unironically. Imagine the horror not having to worry over not being able to pay your mortgage or rent whenever your boss or some power tripping middle manager decided they want you to start juggling bowling pins while riding a unicycle while you were hired to develop software. Won't someone please think of the poor employers? /s
  - ericmay 5y ago
    How are tech salaries in Western Europe compared to the US? There are pros and cons. How would you hire someone at a startup? Do you specify they can only write code for the website and then if you need their help with something else they just say "not in my job description"? Eventually you'd just get contracts that have laundry lists of vague responsibilities to get around this and it would just wind up like standard terms of service for websites/electronics where people just sign and take the job. Too much money at stake to not do it and for little gain.
    - swongel 5y ago
      We have a justice system based on reasonable interpretation by judges, which is a bit less "strict" literal interpretation of contracts. Mine says "Software development", some collective bargaining agreements have more specific descriptions (to prevent under paying of employees by classifying them as lower salaries jobs). As a start-up you'd hire contractors which you'd pay a much higher fee for, as these wouldn't have the labor protections of employees. Salaries for contractors are I guess similar to the US maybe a bit lower, for salaries employees definitely lower than the US (for tech at least). But then again my rent is cheaper, and my insurances are cheaper too, I get PTO and unlimited sick-days, stuff like that. At the end of the day, if I want to make more money and not have many protections (like in the US) I'd become a contractor. (which does come with some strings attached to prevent employers from hiring normal employees like contractors). You have a choice over here for both models essentially.
      - ericmay 5y ago
        > We have a justice system based on reasonable interpretation by judges, which is a bit less "strict" literal interpretation of contracts. We as in all of Western Europe or for a specific country? What are some examples you've seen where the US has "strict", literal interpretations of contracts that are unreasonable as it relates to employment/the topic at hand? Off the top of my head the only thing that comes to mind immediately is maybe non-competes but I think that's an issue of leverage and not really a contractual issue, and even so it's risky for companies to enforce except for key employees. > As a start-up you'd hire contractors which you'd pay a much higher fee for, as these wouldn't have the labor protections of employees Isn't this just sidestepping the protection? And without needing to do an exhaustive list what are the labor protections? I assume there are like a minimum number of paid days off/holidays/vacation, exact job you'll do (though this is still vague to me how it's handled practically) and some protections around being fired/how you are fired? Is there a big protection for tech workers I'm missing? > But then again my rent is cheaper, and my insurances are cheaper too, I get PTO and unlimited sick-days, stuff like that. At the end of the day, if I want to make more money and not have many protections (like in the US) I'd become a contractor. (which does come with some strings attached to prevent employers from hiring normal employees like contractors). My "rent" (mortgage in this case) is pretty cheap and so is my insurance. I work remote for a great company, get PTO, and take it as you need it sick days and stuff like that too. Of course rental rates in certain markets (NY, SF, etc.) are much higher, as is compensation. $250k-$300k for many tech workers. I think that probably compensates for the higher costs though who knows what'll happen with the post-pandemic labor market (2024-2026 or so).
  - trixie_ 5y ago
    Funny how in your world the bad manager from your example would be difficult to fire as well.
    - swongel 5y ago
      So? They're employees too, I can handle a bad manager, I can't handle being fired over some bullshit. That manager has a mortgage too, you know? It's nothing personal, it's business.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  Don’t most job descriptions already include “and other duties as assigned”?
icedchai 5y ago
Most offer letters in the US have a line that includes "other duties as required" or similar. Job descriptions are generally extremely broad.
toss1 5y ago
>>That's a nice way to say "Do what I tell you regardless of what we agreed your role would be or I fire you". No, it is specifically NOT that. It is exactly what I said, expecting people to have a "Can Do / put your shoulder to the wheel / solve the problem" attitude, and to be flexible about how it gets done. Especially in a development situation (vs production that's been static for years). If the company failed to make clear at the beginning that it was a dynamic and changing environment, and that Can Do attitude is expected, then yeah, it is their fault. But even in relatively staid environments, a "not my job" attitude can become toxic and contagious in a hurry. Then, it may not be far before no one has a job. I'm strongly pro-union and pro-workers getting a larger slice of the economic pie. But I also recognize that the "not my job" attitude and over-constraining work rules is an enormous part of what lead to the demise of unions. Of course you don't want plumbers doing electrical work and vice-versa, but when a plumber or manager cannot toss a stray shovel onto the truck without a foreman/union/mgt meeting being called for stepping over the line (literally seen it happen), that's beyond unsustainable.

Mountain_Skies 5y ago

Sounds like a great way to end up even more short handed in a tight labor market, especially when there are plenty of other employers who aren't going to make similar demands. "My way or the highway" isn't a great policy when you need them much more than they need you.

toss1 5y ago
It is not a "my way or the highway"; it is expecting a "can do" attitude (and yes I understand that "my way or the highway" is toxic). Attitudes of "Can Do", "Solve the problem", "How do we get better than our competition" are pretty much the polar opposite of a "not my job" attitude. It is one thing to see in a low-level position, where a certain percentage of it is expected. But in a responsible position like serious software development, it's a red flag for lack of engagement. I've also seen it turn into an actively undermining the company attitude, which is toxic for everyone. I'd look for it to get fixed fast, or they're on the short list for "we don't really need to pay you to come here anymore" attitude.