5 ms·

> your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig Why are you making stuff up? These sorts of careless lies, which are all too common, can be har

> your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig Why are you making stuff up? These sorts of careless lies, which are all too common, can be hard on young people in college, or considering college, or otherwise. They're either trying to value their potential education or wondering why the fuck they aren't getting the job offers they should be getting because so many are telling them their degree is the gateway to instant riches, and you're not helping. > the total comp number for top-tier MBAs is about half of that. Wrong in a very different way here. You should stop.

mcguire 5y ago
If you listen to USNews, Stanford is the top business school and tied with three others for top CS school. Average base salary plus expected performance bonus and signing bonus for Stanford MBA's: $270,394. Base starting salary $159,544, signing bonus $32,551. (https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/23396/report-2020-mba-employment-report.pdf https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/2...) Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS: $153,400 (https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-university/masters-degrees/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/#salary https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-uni...) Signing bonuses from 2016-2017 averaged $26,952. (https://wxkcg.com/content/234918 https://wxkcg.com/content/234918) Plus stock.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS We're talking about PhDs.
  - mcguire 5y ago
    I don't consider a PhD to be in any way equivalent to a MBA. As far as training goes, a PhD is about how to do research. The result often in fact is a step down in salary. Plus it seems to be very difficult to find any recent data on salaries. This, from 2013 (!), says PhD salaries are about 15% more and signing bonuses are less. (https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-stanford-cs-and-ee-majors/ https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-s...)
throwawaygh 5y ago
>> Why are you making stuff up? I'm not. Serious question: how many students and faculty currently at low-tier institutions have you talked with in the last two weeks? Two months? Two years? Do you sit on any boards or advisory panels at these types of institutions? Do you actively recruit from these types of institutions? I do. All of those things. I know what I'm talking about. Stop being mean to me. LACs pay junior faculty $65K and those faculty routinely place students in positions with >$150K total comp. These are facts, even at low tier colleges. Every student? No. Some students every year? Absolutely. If you teach CS well and make $65K, almost all your students will make more than you do at their first position and many will make 2x-3x. More than enough that you'll start asking "why the hell am I here?" > These sorts of careless lies... This rant sounds extremely personal. Not going to touch this. >> the total comp number for top-tier MBAs is about half of that. > Wrong in a very different way here. You should stop. Total comp out of a top CS PhD programs lately is around 200K-300K range with some outliers. Total comp out of a top MBA program lately is around 100K-200K range with some outliers. Average outcomes vary considerably. That's why my original post is properly conditioned on "top".
- justin66 5y ago
  > If you teach CS well and make $65K, almost all your students will make more than you do at their first position and many will make 2x-3x "Many" is a weasel word that adds a different flavor to your original assertion that "your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig." What you're saying is still crazy hyperbole. I simply cannot imagine what your source of data is here. A randomly chosen google hit shows that the average starting salary for a new CS undergrad is around $68k, which seems about right. It is still, if we're being honest, probably a bit humbling for a junior professor to be making the same as a new graduate. But you had to lean into the "2x-3x" hyperbole... >> These sorts of careless lies... > This rant sounds extremely personal. Not going to touch this. Oh, touch it. Young people trying to gauge the profession, higher education, and its' costs are going to read your comments. They are entering what is often a lucrative profession but they are not going to be making three times as much as their teachers. Why make stuff up? It's not helping anybody. > Total comp out of a top CS PhD programs lately is around 200K-300K range with some outliers. > Total comp out of a top MBA program lately is around 100K-200K range with some outliers. This would be a lot more compelling if you provided citations. The salary numbers someone else provided for the Stanford MBA program, numbers which you were dismissive of, included range, median, and mode, and those numbers were higher. But the numbers I (and I suspect, anyone involved in the profession) are likely to be most skeptical about are the numbers you're talking about for CS PhD new grads. Those people will often gravitate towards postdoc and teaching positions, while the Masters students will often gravitate towards FAANG jobs. To be honest I would be delighted to learn that newly graduated CS PhDs from top programs are making, on average, as much as those entering industry with a Masters, since it would probably signal a lot more money being put towards research. I'm pretty sure the numbers you're talking about would have them making twice as much as the new Masters grads, which, again, great! I would be delighted to learn it's true. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/compensation/computer-science-grads-projected-to-be-top-paid-in-major/ https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/compensation/computer-sci...

mcguire 5y ago

If you listen to USNews, Stanford is the top business school and tied with three others for top CS school. Average base salary plus expected performance bonus and signing bonus for Stanford MBA's: $270,394. Base starting salary $159,544, signing bonus $32,551. (https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/23396/report-2020-mba-employment-report.pdf https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/files-fpp/2...) Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS: $153,400 (https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-university/masters-degrees/computer-information-sciences/computer-science/#salary https://www.collegefactual.com/graduate-schools/stanford-uni...) Signing bonuses from 2016-2017 averaged $26,952. (https://wxkcg.com/content/234918 https://wxkcg.com/content/234918) Plus stock.

throwawaygh 5y ago
> Average salary of a Stanford MS in CS We're talking about PhDs.
- mcguire 5y ago
  I don't consider a PhD to be in any way equivalent to a MBA. As far as training goes, a PhD is about how to do research. The result often in fact is a step down in salary. Plus it seems to be very difficult to find any recent data on salaries. This, from 2013 (!), says PhD salaries are about 15% more and signing bonuses are less. (https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-stanford-cs-and-ee-majors/ https://www.stanforddaily.com/2013/10/22/salary-ranges-for-s...)

throwawaygh 5y ago

>> Why are you making stuff up? I'm not. Serious question: how many students and faculty currently at low-tier institutions have you talked with in the last two weeks? Two months? Two years? Do you sit on any boards or advisory panels at these types of institutions? Do you actively recruit from these types of institutions? I do. All of those things. I know what I'm talking about. Stop being mean to me. LACs pay junior faculty $65K and those faculty routinely place students in positions with >$150K total comp. These are facts, even at low tier colleges. Every student? No. Some students every year? Absolutely. If you teach CS well and make $65K, almost all your students will make more than you do at their first position and many will make 2x-3x. More than enough that you'll start asking "why the hell am I here?" > These sorts of careless lies... This rant sounds extremely personal. Not going to touch this. >> the total comp number for top-tier MBAs is about half of that. > Wrong in a very different way here. You should stop. Total comp out of a top CS PhD programs lately is around 200K-300K range with some outliers. Total comp out of a top MBA program lately is around 100K-200K range with some outliers. Average outcomes vary considerably. That's why my original post is properly conditioned on "top".

justin66 5y ago
> If you teach CS well and make $65K, almost all your students will make more than you do at their first position and many will make 2x-3x "Many" is a weasel word that adds a different flavor to your original assertion that "your undergrads are making 3x your income at their first gig." What you're saying is still crazy hyperbole. I simply cannot imagine what your source of data is here. A randomly chosen google hit shows that the average starting salary for a new CS undergrad is around $68k, which seems about right. It is still, if we're being honest, probably a bit humbling for a junior professor to be making the same as a new graduate. But you had to lean into the "2x-3x" hyperbole... >> These sorts of careless lies... > This rant sounds extremely personal. Not going to touch this. Oh, touch it. Young people trying to gauge the profession, higher education, and its' costs are going to read your comments. They are entering what is often a lucrative profession but they are not going to be making three times as much as their teachers. Why make stuff up? It's not helping anybody. > Total comp out of a top CS PhD programs lately is around 200K-300K range with some outliers. > Total comp out of a top MBA program lately is around 100K-200K range with some outliers. This would be a lot more compelling if you provided citations. The salary numbers someone else provided for the Stanford MBA program, numbers which you were dismissive of, included range, median, and mode, and those numbers were higher. But the numbers I (and I suspect, anyone involved in the profession) are likely to be most skeptical about are the numbers you're talking about for CS PhD new grads. Those people will often gravitate towards postdoc and teaching positions, while the Masters students will often gravitate towards FAANG jobs. To be honest I would be delighted to learn that newly graduated CS PhDs from top programs are making, on average, as much as those entering industry with a Masters, since it would probably signal a lot more money being put towards research. I'm pretty sure the numbers you're talking about would have them making twice as much as the new Masters grads, which, again, great! I would be delighted to learn it's true. [0] https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/compensation/computer-science-grads-projected-to-be-top-paid-in-major/ https://www.naceweb.org/job-market/compensation/computer-sci...